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#11
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Three take offs = three landings at Newton MS and Madison MS -Video
On Nov 23, 4:19*pm, " wrote:
On Nov 23, 11:43*am, a wrote: The thing you may be missing is you are used to flying a certain glide slope, probably defined by the VASI. On a short field for me at least the final approach over the obstruction to flare is MUCH steeper. I'm trading off comfort and some margin for a very short roll-out. I bet you are right on what I am used to for glide. *Instrument world does make a mess of visual approaches and it's nuances. Generally I don't miss the VASI or PAPI, as that is how I learned ) keeping the bug spot on the numbers), but what I haven't had much practice "for real reasons" is that 50 foot obtacle clearance. Imaginary trees not quite as "intimidating" when the real deal trees tend to block the lights at approach end of the runway on a low glide path. :-) and I really didn't feel that low coming into M23 as I would have made the runway (without the trees) *had the fan quit. *The last short field airport I went to was 2700 foot and it was much easier since there were no obstacles. So in a nutshell, short fields I can hang with, it's that extra variable having trees :-) that give it a little extra slam dunking challenge for me. I can pretty much assure you if you get slow with a steep approach angle the trees will be less a mind games problem. Come in at a steeper approach angle, aim for touchdown 1200 feet short of the turnoff -- you'll be surprised at how easy the short field technique is. 2700 feet is simply not a short field, I'd be aiming to touch down 1500 feet from the turn off in a routine landing. If you go slower in effect you'll be flying an approach angle a 172 with some flaps deployed flies, and if it feels dicey the first couple of times there's plenty of room for pitching down a bit. Try it at 2000 feet agl, get a bit slower, then watch airspeed and rate of descent. You're apt to be surprised at how comfortable you'd be at something a lot more than 3 degrees. A final not-in-the-book technique is to carry a bit of a slip down the center line -- much easier if there's a cross wind -- but the Mooney, normally a very clean airplane, turns into a pig when flown a bit sideways. All of this, of course, assumes one is very familiar with the airplane. I am very comfortable closer to the edge in my airplane than I would be in something like a 172, which is a much more forgiving airplane, unless I had a bunch of recent hours in it. I would not do any of the things I mentioned with a non pilot aboard, and even with one who's not a CFI I'd be doing a lot of talking to avoid having the right hand seat badly stained. After all, I have to get out of the airplane over that seat. Had a thought -- be fun to do some of those things with some of the pseudo pilots who post here aboard. My pre flight check list would include the challenge "Depends?" with the required response "On". |
#12
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Three take offs = three landings at Newton MS and Madison MS -Video
On Nov 23, 3:53*pm, a wrote:
A final not-in-the-book technique is to carry a bit of a slip down the center line -- much easier if there's a cross wind -- but the Mooney, normally a very clean airplane, turns into a pig when flown a bit sideways. I actually considered this slip method and probably would have tried it had I had some time for a third or fourth approach. I can get outstanding sink rate with my Sundowner slipping, just seems it's all or nothing. Either it doesn't want to stop flying (as in the video) or drops like a man hole cover. Looking at the raw video, on my taxi back to 13, I counted 7 white centerline stripes of which 5 were before the taxiway turnoff. Maybe somebody can calculate the actual distance it took me to do a 180 in the middle of the 7th stripe? http://www.airnav.com/airport/M23 has a good picture of the airport and 13 is the left side of the airport where I landed. Second landing took longer to stop but I landed pretty close to where the first landing was. For me..... It's finding that happy medium with power adjustments for me. Nose probably like your Mooney points down with flaps deployed so balancing that heavy nose with my stabilator at slow speeds gets rather dicey as when I get behind the power curve, I start losing that stabilator authority.. Not sure about Mooneys, but I am very forward CG so when I deploy flaps, my ASI actually will increase slightly due to the pitch down movement until drag kicks in.. I agree 2700 really not short but it's short relative to this pilots experience. :-) and even in the video, I had it stopped well within 2000 feet (or less). I just need much more practice around trees! Never thought of depends as a preflight checklist! I should add it LOL |
#13
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Three take offs = three landings at Newton MS and Madison MS -Video
On Nov 23, 6:04*pm, " wrote:
On Nov 23, 3:53*pm, a wrote: A final not-in-the-book technique is to carry a bit of a slip down the center line -- much easier if there's a cross wind -- but the Mooney, normally a very clean airplane, turns into a pig when flown a bit sideways. I actually considered this slip method and probably would have tried it had I had some time for a third or fourth approach. *I can get outstanding sink rate with my Sundowner slipping, just seems it's all or nothing. *Either it doesn't want to stop flying (as in the video) or drops like a man hole cover. Looking at the raw video, on my taxi back to 13, I counted 7 white centerline stripes of which 5 were before the taxiway turnoff. *Maybe somebody can calculate the actual distance it took me to do a 180 in the middle of the 7th stripe? *http://www.airnav.com/airport/M23has a good picture of the airport and 13 is the left side of the airport where I landed. Second landing took longer to stop but I landed pretty close to where the first landing was. For me..... It's finding that happy medium with power adjustments for me. *Nose probably like your Mooney points down with flaps deployed so balancing that heavy nose with my stabilator at slow speeds gets rather dicey as when I get behind the power curve, I start losing that stabilator authority.. *Not sure about Mooneys, but I am very forward CG so when I deploy flaps, my ASI actually will increase slightly due to the pitch down movement until drag kicks in.. I agree 2700 really not short but it's short relative to this pilots experience. :-) and even in the video, I had it stopped well within 2000 feet (or less). *I just need much more practice around trees! Never thought of depends as a preflight checklist! *I should add it LOL Not wanting to abuse dead horses here, but may I suggest you think a little bit differently about runways? Don't consider them starting on the numbers, think about them starting a comfortable distance from your turn off point -- say, 2000 feet short of it. Then all runways in your mind's eye are 2000 feet long, with perhaps a mile of over- run or lead in. You'll fly more and taxi less. More importantly, you'll be getting off the active sooner, which once every 500 years might save your life. One caution -- if you're landing at an uncontrolled airport with a long runway and there's someone at the threshold, be careful. I tend to fly the approach in that circumstance so that my airplane is where that pilot might be looking (rather than much higher), then add power and fly the extra 500 feet (or whatever) down the runway before touching down. These are all really minor things, it's asking the usual questions about what might be done better, and refining techniques. That is really are what we should look for on RAP: Dudley was the model for giving that kind of information. |
#14
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Three take offs = three landings at Newton MS and Madison MS -Video
On Nov 24, 3:53*am, a wrote:
On Nov 23, 6:04*pm, " wrote: On Nov 23, 3:53*pm, a wrote: A final not-in-the-book technique is to carry a bit of a slip down the center line -- much easier if there's a cross wind -- but the Mooney, normally a very clean airplane, turns into a pig when flown a bit sideways. I actually considered this slip method and probably would have tried it had I had some time for a third or fourth approach. *I can get outstanding sink rate with my Sundowner slipping, just seems it's all or nothing. *Either it doesn't want to stop flying (as in the video) or drops like a man hole cover. Looking at the raw video, on my taxi back to 13, I counted 7 white centerline stripes of which 5 were before the taxiway turnoff. *Maybe somebody can calculate the actual distance it took me to do a 180 in the middle of the 7th stripe? *http://www.airnav.com/airport/M23hasa good picture of the airport and 13 is the left side of the airport where I landed. Second landing took longer to stop but I landed pretty close to where the first landing was. For me..... It's finding that happy medium with power adjustments for me. *Nose probably like your Mooney points down with flaps deployed so balancing that heavy nose with my stabilator at slow speeds gets rather dicey as when I get behind the power curve, I start losing that stabilator authority.. *Not sure about Mooneys, but I am very forward CG so when I deploy flaps, my ASI actually will increase slightly due to the pitch down movement until drag kicks in.. I agree 2700 really not short but it's short relative to this pilots experience. :-) and even in the video, I had it stopped well within 2000 feet (or less). *I just need much more practice around trees! Never thought of depends as a preflight checklist! *I should add it LOL Not wanting to abuse dead horses here, but may I suggest you think a little bit differently about runways? Don't consider them starting on the numbers, think about them starting a comfortable distance from your turn off point -- say, 2000 feet short of it. Then all runways in your mind's eye *are 2000 feet long, with perhaps a mile of over- run or lead in. You'll fly more and taxi less. More importantly, you'll be getting off the active sooner, which once every 500 years might save your life. One caution -- if you're landing at an uncontrolled airport with a long runway and there's someone at the threshold, be careful. I tend to fly the approach in that circumstance so that my airplane is where that pilot might be looking (rather than much higher), then add power and fly the extra 500 feet (or whatever) down the runway before touching down. These are all really minor things, it's asking the usual questions about what might be done better, and refining techniques. That is really are what we should look for on RAP: Dudley was the model for giving that kind of information.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I find this type of information to be very useful, and enjoyable to read...at 4 in the morning when I'd like to be in the air. Thnx, Mark |
#15
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Three take offs = three landings at Newton MS and Madison MS -Video
On Nov 24, 5:21*am, " wrote:
On Nov 22, 1:21*pm, "Flaps_50!" wrote: This can be achieved by making use of the back side of the power curve. Try to really land within the short field specs of the plane i.e. to get her down and stopped by a certain point on the runway. Not sure how much further I could have gone on the back side of the power curve flaps. *Stall horn was going strong on both landings. Any slower airspeed and I would have plunged to the ground. Try this: get the nose way up and add say 1/2 power. You've trimmed for airspeed now with this high attitude so control airspeed with power and aim point with elevator. You'll be amazed at your approach angle in this very high drag config. If the stall peeps just open the throttle a bit and keep that aim point fixed all the way down. Get used to flying on the throttle with almost second by second subtle power changes. Now you drop speed by reducing throttle on very short final to say 10k over Vs. As you round out/flare you will shed energy very fast as you simultaneously chop the throttle - you should be less than 3' AGL. The plane will settle firmly onto the mains in a _very_ high nose angle but that's what you want -all the weight on the mains and no energy left. Lots of drag is here to slow you down: The wing really is deeply stalled. Nose super high adding fuse drag Lots of elevator trying to keep nose wheel off (the elevator should end up all the way back -adding even more drag) With all weight on the mains make those wheels squeal (but don't lock up)! The nose wheel only touches when YOU can't keep it off but don't relax that back elevator -think drag and weight on the mains. When you do this a few times you will realize that all sorts of new places are potential landing spots. If you are not comfortable with the backside of the power curve practice this type of descent at altitude and note the VSI. Gradually get lower as you get used to the method and the way your baby responds to throttle. I'm not an instructor so I could be talking rubbish (perhaps I'm not a real pilot ;-) One last thing: I learnt from tail dragging -the landing is NOT over 'til the plane is stopped. YMMV Cheers I think your second sentence is the answer, NOT the first one to correcting the problem I encountered in the video. *Problem as I replied to A was that I was intimidated by the real deal 50 foot obstacle (AKA trees) causing me to make a steeper then normal descent. I plan to go back and try this again to keep practicing :-) |
#16
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Three take offs = three landings at Newton MS and Madison MS -Video
On Nov 24, 4:43*am, "Flaps_50!" wrote:
On Nov 24, 5:21*am, " wrote: On Nov 22, 1:21*pm, "Flaps_50!" wrote: This can be achieved by making use of the back side of the power curve. Try to really land within the short field specs of the plane i.e. to get her down and stopped by a certain point on the runway. Not sure how much further I could have gone on the back side of the power curve flaps. *Stall horn was going strong on both landings. Any slower airspeed and I would have plunged to the ground. Try this: get the nose way up and add say 1/2 power. You've trimmed for airspeed now with this high attitude so control airspeed with power and aim point with elevator. You'll be amazed at your approach angle in this very high drag config. If the stall peeps just open the throttle a bit and keep that aim point fixed all the way down. Get used to flying on the throttle with almost second by second subtle power changes. Now you drop speed by reducing throttle on very short final to say 10k over Vs. As you round out/flare you will shed energy very fast as you simultaneously chop the throttle - you should be less than 3' *AGL. The plane will settle firmly onto the mains in a _very_ high nose angle but that's what you want -all the weight on the mains and no energy left. Lots of drag is here to slow you down: The wing really is deeply stalled. Nose super high adding fuse drag Lots of elevator trying to keep nose wheel off (the elevator should end up all the way back -adding even more drag) With all weight on the mains make those wheels squeal (but don't lock up)! The nose wheel only touches when YOU can't keep it off but don't relax that back elevator -think drag and weight on the mains. When you do this a few times you will realize that all sorts of new places are potential landing spots. If you are not comfortable with the backside of the power curve practice this type of descent at altitude and note the VSI. Gradually get lower as you get used to the method and the way your baby responds to throttle. I'm not an instructor so I could be talking rubbish (perhaps I'm not a real pilot ;-) One last thing: I learnt from tail dragging -the landing is NOT over 'til the plane is stopped. YMMV Cheers I think your second sentence is the answer, NOT the first one to correcting the problem I encountered in the video. *Problem as I replied to A was that I was intimidated by the real deal 50 foot obstacle (AKA trees) causing me to make a steeper then normal descent. I plan to go back and try this again to keep practicing :-) Coming down on the back side of the power curve works -- what I'm not sure about is if aerodynamic losses are as effective as braking once the airplane has weight on the mains. The more weight the more effective are the brakes. In the end, we may be talking talking about a difference of 10 or 20 feet in rollout one way or the other. For what it's worth, powered slow flight deep in the flare ALWAYS drags the Mooney's tail skid, then that contact pitches the mains down very firmly! It feels as if it's dropped on from a foot above the runway. I'd rather land with the nose still coming up with some elevator left, but on the other hand never had land off field. I suppose if some condition forced that I'd do what I had practiced rather than experiment with something else. The theme of this thread has changed into encouraging us all to do that practice. You hinted at tail dragger experience so you would NOT be welcome to take part in that short field hamburger bet I mentioned earlier unless your taildragger is a DC 3. . It would be a lot easier just to send you a gift certificate to Ruby Tuesday's. |
#17
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Three take offs = three landings at Newton MS and Madison MS -Video
On Nov 25, 1:45*am, a wrote:
On Nov 24, 4:43*am, "Flaps_50!" wrote: On Nov 24, 5:21*am, " wrote: On Nov 22, 1:21*pm, "Flaps_50!" wrote: This can be achieved by making use of the back side of the power curve. Try to really land within the short field specs of the plane i.e. to get her down and stopped by a certain point on the runway. Not sure how much further I could have gone on the back side of the power curve flaps. *Stall horn was going strong on both landings. Any slower airspeed and I would have plunged to the ground. Try this: get the nose way up and add say 1/2 power. You've trimmed for airspeed now with this high attitude so control airspeed with power and aim point with elevator. You'll be amazed at your approach angle in this very high drag config. If the stall peeps just open the throttle a bit and keep that aim point fixed all the way down. Get used to flying on the throttle with almost second by second subtle power changes. Now you drop speed by reducing throttle on very short final to say 10k over Vs. As you round out/flare you will shed energy very fast as you simultaneously chop the throttle - you should be less than 3' *AGL. The plane will settle firmly onto the mains in a _very_ high nose angle but that's what you want -all the weight on the mains and no energy left. Lots of drag is here to slow you down: The wing really is deeply stalled. Nose super high adding fuse drag Lots of elevator trying to keep nose wheel off (the elevator should end up all the way back -adding even more drag) With all weight on the mains make those wheels squeal (but don't lock up)! The nose wheel only touches when YOU can't keep it off but don't relax that back elevator -think drag and weight on the mains. When you do this a few times you will realize that all sorts of new places are potential landing spots. If you are not comfortable with the backside of the power curve practice this type of descent at altitude and note the VSI. Gradually get lower as you get used to the method and the way your baby responds to throttle. I'm not an instructor so I could be talking rubbish (perhaps I'm not a real pilot ;-) One last thing: I learnt from tail dragging -the landing is NOT over 'til the plane is stopped. YMMV Cheers I think your second sentence is the answer, NOT the first one to correcting the problem I encountered in the video. *Problem as I replied to A was that I was intimidated by the real deal 50 foot obstacle (AKA trees) causing me to make a steeper then normal descent.. I plan to go back and try this again to keep practicing :-) Coming down on the back side of the power curve works -- what I'm not sure about is if aerodynamic losses are as effective as braking once the airplane has weight on the mains. Initiatially the aerodynamic factoers are more important, but keeping the nose wheel off for as long as possible maximizes braking. Then again I would bow to higher authority. The more weight the more effective are the brakes. In the end, we may be talking talking about a difference of 10 or 20 feet in rollout one way or the other. For what it's worth, powered slow flight deep in the flare ALWAYS drags the Mooney's tail skid, then that contact pitches the mains down very firmly! It feels as if it's dropped on from a foot above the runway. I'd rather land with the nose still coming up with some elevator left, but on the other hand never had land off field. OK. An additional factor is on a rough field the nose wheel is a weak point so keeping it off may prevent firewall damage. I suppose if some condition forced that I'd do what I had practiced rather than experiment with something else. *The theme of this thread has changed into encouraging us all to do that practice. As I see it, being good at short field is a good idea. The iron fairey can quit at any time... Being able to drop the plane into a small area adds a lot to my confidence... You hinted at tail dragger experience so you would NOT be welcome to take part in that short field hamburger bet I *mentioned earlier unless your taildragger is a DC 3. . It would be a lot easier just to send you a gift certificate to Ruby Tuesday's. AlI can say is that tail dragging turned my landings from average into much better than that. I recommend it! Cheers |
#18
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Three take offs = three landings at Newton MS and Madison MS -Video
On Nov 25, 3:31*am, "Flaps_50!" wrote:
AlI can say is that tail dragging turned my landings from average into much better than that. I recommend it! You cannot compare flight simulation landings with landing a plane in the outside world. I have done both and speak from experience. Please preface statements like the above with such caveats as I don't think A is aware you are not talking from experience of flying a real plane nor hold a PPL. |
#19
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Three take offs = three landings at Newton MS and Madison MS -Video
On Nov 25, 8:26*am, " wrote:
On Nov 25, 3:31*am, "Flaps_50!" wrote: AlI can say is that tail dragging turned my landings from average into much better than that. I recommend it! You cannot compare flight simulation landings with landing a plane in the outside world. *I have done both and speak from experience. Please preface statements like the above with such caveats as I don't think A is aware you are not talking from experience of flying a real plane nor hold a PPL. I have no way of knowing the credentials of anyone who posts here, but we should be intelligent enough to decide if suggestions make sense to us, even if coming from non-pilots. There are zip lock bags in my airplane because they are great for people who unexpectedly get motion sick, and that idea came from a pax who carried some of those, just in case. |
#20
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Three take offs = three landings at Newton MS and Madison MS -Video
On Nov 25, 9:54*am, a wrote:
On Nov 25, 8:26*am, " wrote: On Nov 25, 3:31*am, "Flaps_50!" wrote: AlI can say is that tail dragging turned my landings from average into much better than that. I recommend it! You cannot compare flight simulation landings with landing a plane in the outside world. *I have done both and speak from experience. Please preface statements like the above with such caveats as I don't think A is aware you are not talking from experience of flying a real plane nor hold a PPL. I have no way of knowing the credentials of anyone who posts here, but we should be intelligent enough to decide if suggestions make sense to us, even if coming from non-pilots. There are zip lock bags in my airplane because they are great for people who unexpectedly get motion sick, and that idea came from a pax who carried some of those, just in case. Suggestions are one thing as he has been giving all along Saying that he has landed a tail dragger is another or that his landings have improved without full disclosure is a diservice to those who may not "know the full story" (readers coming to here for the first time). :-) How can he recommend something he has never done in real life? One shoe doesn't fit all. I have landed tail draggers in a sim with no problems but you wouldn't want to put your life in me landing a tail dragger in real life. I can't feel the plane in the seat in of my pants in MSFX which is paramount for in my eyes for flying and landing a tail dragger. My tail dragger experiences amounted to turns and straight and level flight and I barely could maintain coordinated flight without looking at the TC. He makes it sound in what I quoted that he flies a plane in real life and it's just as simple as ABC. As you know, book smarts and street smarts are two different things. It appears to me flaps has the book smarts but his street smarts are not up to snuff and sims just don't get him up to speed when sitting in less then sterile conditions of a desktop computer. Yes, actually I am a pro sim person, but not for learning how to land a plane. Mouse inputs don't give you that feel you need before meeting terra firma. |
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