Apache gun camera video

"Helomech" wrote in message ...
So what do we have here........ 3 guys slaughtered that were not carrying
weapons - not pointing anything at anyone........perhaps trying to fix a
busted tractor in the wrong place at the wrong time........

I don't see one weapon that the Iraqi's had..........anywhere in this
video........

I've seen the full-length video. Probably about 9 minutes long,
although I could be wrong. It's definitely long. Anyway, there's
definitely a long cylindrical object that looks just right to be
either an RPG or a MANPADS that one of the subjects pulls from the
smaller truck and walks about 70-90 feet into the field and sets down.
Anyone's guess as to what the story was, although to me it appeared
like it was possibly an ambush site being stocked. The radio chatter
is significant...there's a lot of back and forth discussion of what's
being observed, what to do, and the clearance to fire doesn't come for
a good 5-6 minutes. The first two subjects just flat-out disappear
when fired on. The third was under the truck when he was spotted, and
the first burst chewed up the front of the truck and some rounds
looked like they made it underneath. When he crawls out, it sure
looks like he's missing a leg and is hurt bad, so the second burst
certainly put him out of his misery.

Is it shocking? Yeah. Is it justified? Not my call to make,
although I would presume that the actions they were undertaking were
clear enough to identify as insurgency-related and that the Apache was
the only viable option for intercepting the subjects.

And I CERTAINLY believe that any news program would cut the vid to
just the minute or so of target engagement at the expense of the
context of the moment.

Where is the full length?

"Jeb Hoge" wrote in message
om...
"Helomech" wrote in message
...
snip

Andrew ) writes:
http://w3.kill-9.com/apache_kills.mpeg

Andrew

A more complete version is located at:

http://home.comcast.net/~antman01/ap...on_in_iraq.avi

"John Keeney" wrote in message
...

"Helomech " wrote in message
...

"Andrew" wrote in message
...
http://w3.kill-9.com/apache_kills.mpeg

Andrew


Although it is amazing to see combat video like this........

Certain things don't look exactly kosher to me...........

1. Does anyone else notice that these Iraqi's were walking up to a
tractor,
one was in the drivers seat?

Yep, assumedly some of what was seen is not on this video.

2. After the first Iraqi is killed, the one next to the tractor waves a
piece of cloth in the air - which is a sign of surrender and commonly
used
by Iraqi's ......... and the Apache gunner shoots him anyway....

I wouldn't go that far.
It looks to me that the man by the tractor is tearing the covering off a
bundle.
Just as the cross hairs go back to him you can see something flexible on
the
ground in front of him he is "working" with. With his left hand he pulls
of
the
cloth with a long jerk that throws his arm and the cloth behind him and
slightly
into the air as he is leaned over. This is not a surrender wave as he
drops
that
item and leans farther over and puts his hands to what is left.
In fact if you watch carefully on full screen you can see this guy pulling
something out of the tractor as he disappears of the left side as the gun
tracks
the man that came down off the tractor.
Given the general shape and size of the object "waved" I can't help
thinking
"gun case."
At any rate, the waving "in the air" is just the quick back swing of what
ever
cloth removal from what ever source.

Well actually after watching the "Entire video" not just the shortened
version which has been making the rounds....... it is plain to see that the
crew thought the Iraqi had a weapon, the threw it to the ground, and it
seems the third Iraqi picked it up (off camera) and took it over to the
"tractor"...... and yes it could very well have been a gun case - bag.......
but no - in my opinion it was too small and thin of an item to be an RPG or
MANPAD.......more likely a rifle / AK?



3. The last Iraqi shot, was wounded and rolling on the ground - even
though
the gunner reported him wounded he was told to shoot him again
anyway........ so now it is ok to shoot the wounded and those that wish
to
surrender?

Wounded, yea, if you just wounded them, they are over there, you are over
here
and you have no means of taking them prisoner.
Surrendering? I see no one trying to surrender.

4. You'll notice even the gunner thought this to be a bit excessive, and
he
seems to have targeted the truck on the right - instead of moving
forward
as
ordered (With the sight) and hitting the wounded iraqi
directly...........

If you say so.

So what do we have here........ 3 guys slaughtered that were not
carrying
weapons - not pointing anything at anyone........perhaps trying to fix a
busted tractor in the wrong place at the wrong time........

It would have been better to capture them. But that requires a patrol in
the area and who says there was one?

I don't see one weapon that the Iraqi's had..........anywhere in this
video........

See more of the video and I'll wager you do.



Acknowledged, still I think this is more of a case of these Iraqi's being in
the wrong place at the wrong time.....looking like they had weapons - or did
have at least one.......

Helomech

"Jeb Hoge" wrote in message
om...
"Helomech" wrote in message
...
So what do we have here........ 3 guys slaughtered that were not
carrying
weapons - not pointing anything at anyone........perhaps trying to fix a
busted tractor in the wrong place at the wrong time........

I don't see one weapon that the Iraqi's had..........anywhere in this
video........

I've seen the full-length video. Probably about 9 minutes long,
although I could be wrong. It's definitely long. Anyway, there's
definitely a long cylindrical object that looks just right to be
either an RPG or a MANPADS that one of the subjects pulls from the
smaller truck and walks about 70-90 feet into the field and sets down.

Put on full screen with the video resolution from the TADS... hte object
being carried by the Iraqi is not the right size of an RPG or a manpad...
more likely a rifle or AK.



Anyone's guess as to what the story was, although to me it appeared
like it was possibly an ambush site being stocked. The radio chatter
is significant...there's a lot of back and forth discussion of what's
being observed, what to do, and the clearance to fire doesn't come for
a good 5-6 minutes. The first two subjects just flat-out disappear
when fired on. The third was under the truck when he was spotted, and
the first burst chewed up the front of the truck and some rounds
looked like they made it underneath. When he crawls out, it sure
looks like he's missing a leg and is hurt bad, so the second burst
certainly put him out of his misery.

So now we shoot the wounded to "Put them out of their misery"?
Does that look bad or what?

Somebody got a little excited and trigger happy in my opinion.......
I know that sometimes the ROE get bent and taking out the bad guys is
paramount........but someone should explain this action a bit
clearer.......... I think this one is gonna haunt the Army for
awhile........ I bet every news agency in the arab world is going to show
that wounded Iraqi being gunned down ......including aljazeera - which
sucks.....or could be explained a whole lot better in context...... but all
I am hearing is silence..........from the Army. And who the hell released
this video in the first place?



Is it shocking? Yeah. Is it justified? Not my call to make,
although I would presume that the actions they were undertaking were
clear enough to identify as insurgency-related and that the Apache was
the only viable option for intercepting the subjects.

And I CERTAINLY believe that any news program would cut the vid to
just the minute or so of target engagement at the expense of the
context of the moment.

Of course they cut the video to only show what works for their agenda.......
which is exactly the original video I saw.... the shortened one.

Helomech

neb.rr.com

Well actually after watching the "Entire video" not just the shortened
version which has been making the rounds....... it is plain to see
that the

Where can I find this longer wersion (as download-able file i.e. .avi /
..mpeg) ?

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~l-.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GG-1175498 ____| ]____,
Rafal 'Raf256' Maj X-( * )
Rafal(at)Raf256(dot)com ,"----------"

Ghoulish? Maybe. But it also helps us to understand conditions there, and
what the troops, pilots, and Iraqis are going through. I found it very
disturbing.

I don't question the motives of the pilots (not nearly enough info to do
that), I just think that all this posting of footage of Americans killing
enemies (Afghanistan & Iraq) is pretty tasteless. Sure, some of these
victims are evil men who are deserving of justice (death or not isn't
something I'll debate), and the pilots were probably acting under
self-defense or justifiable acts of war. I'm not blaming the pilots, I'm
not blaming the American troops or the efforts against terrorism.
I just think it's tasteless to show their deaths across the world,
especially in such trivial contexts. Imagine if their deaths were
accidental, and their families knew that their faces were being shown across
the world (remember the Somalis dragging the dead American soldiers, or the
people falling from the WTC?). I'm not attacking you (as you also found
them disturbing), just the general idea that it's OK to broadcast explicit
videos of people dying in such a trivial context. This isn't soldiers doing
the dirty work of analyzing battle footage. This is either trivia or
entertainment and I don't think either of those justify trivializing the
death of a group of human beings. As my quote from Randy said, when you
start taking other people's death as no big deal, that might be a sign you
really don't belong here amongst moral, civilized people.

Tony

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 00:34:45 -0500, "Tony Volk"
wrote:

Ghoulish? Maybe. But it also helps us to understand conditions there, and
what the troops, pilots, and Iraqis are going through. I found it very
disturbing.

I don't question the motives of the pilots (not nearly enough info to do
that), I just think that all this posting of footage of Americans killing
enemies (Afghanistan & Iraq) is pretty tasteless. Sure, some of these
victims are evil men who are deserving of justice (death or not isn't
something I'll debate), and the pilots were probably acting under
self-defense or justifiable acts of war. I'm not blaming the pilots, I'm
not blaming the American troops or the efforts against terrorism.
I just think it's tasteless to show their deaths across the world,
especially in such trivial contexts.

I think you'd have to talk to the news services about that. They've
never been known to have scruples or many brains either. ISTR that
the excuse they used was they were debating if a 30mm gun was
"excessive". Gotta love those PC, tree hugging dumbasses. It's a
good thing they've never heard of artillery or bombs huh? Dead is
dead.

Darrell A. Larose wrote:
Andrew ) writes:
http://w3.kill-9.com/apache_kills.mpeg

Andrew

A more complete version is located at:

http://home.comcast.net/~antman01/ap...on_in_iraq.avi

This appears to be corrupted. If you encoded it, could try to
re-encode it, otherwise does anyone else have the complete clip?

Andrew

http://home.comcast.net/~antman01/ap...on_in_iraq.avi



"Rafal 'Raf256' Maj" wrote in message
...
neb.rr.com

Well actually after watching the "Entire video" not just the shortened
version which has been making the rounds....... it is plain to see
that the

Where can I find this longer wersion (as download-able file i.e. .avi /
.mpeg) ?

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~l-.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GG-1175498 ____| ]____,
Rafal 'Raf256' Maj X-( * )
Rafal(at)Raf256(dot)com ,"----------"