Questions about diamond distance.

Scott,

Please do as Darryl has suggested and READ the Sporting Code. I will
not add any potentially confusing comments here. Read it, and if you
have a question, ask Judy (The Badge Lady at SSA dot Org). She does
not like to have to deny claims, but if you don't know the rules, your
claim will likely fall outside of them.

Steve Leonard

On Oct 6, 4:30*pm, Scott Alexander
wrote:
I have been looking at a ridge on google earth that I've heard many
glider pilots in east tennessee use. *It starts in Jasper, TN and goes
northeast for about 100 kilometers.

If I run this ridge out and back twice will that count for the 300K
diamond "declared" distance?

What if I do 3 out and backs? *Will that count for the 500K diamond
distance?

What about 5 out and backs....1000K....does that count?

Scott

Hi Scott,

You're getting some correct information and some misleading/partial
answers as well.

Let's break it down into chunks. All references below are from the
current (October 2009) FAI Sporting Code. Note that the FAI is not
the SSA; these are international achievements.

The diamond badge consists of three components:

2.1.3 Diamonds
There are three Diamonds, each of which may be worn on the Silver or
Gold badge, and
the badges for flights of 750 kilometres or more. NACs should maintain
a register of these
badges and, on notification by a NAC, the FAI will enter the names of
pilots attaining the
three Diamond award in an international register.
a. DIAMOND DISTANCE a distance flight of at least 500 kilometres.
b. DIAMOND GOAL a goal flight of at least 300 kilometres over an out-
and-return
course (1.4.6a) or triangular course (1.4.6b).
c. DIAMOND HEIGHT a gain of height of at least 5000 metres.

Since we're not concerned with the height achievement in your case,
you can achieve your Diamond Distance and Diamond Goal in several
combinations:

1. The All-in-One: Fly a 500K triangle or out-and-return and knock
off both the Diamond Distance AND Diamond Goal (hey, while you're at
it, climb to 5,000 meters in wave and be done with the whole badge :-)

2. The Two-Step: Fly a 300K out and return or triangle. Since
that was so easy, come back the next day and do a 3 turnpoint 500K.
Or, just one-up the 300K and do a 500K triangle or out-and-return.
Your choice.

Since you specified that you want to do out-and-return flights or a
back-and-forth flight on the ridge, the other posters correctly
handled the isssues with the number of turnpoints (3 waypoints plus
the start/finish) and the distance between waypoints (10K).

The above answers the specific questions you asked.

Now, if you're gonna fly a triangle (which is way cooler and more
impressive - chicks dig guys who fly triangles), be sure you
understand the rules regarding the allowable shape (defined by the
length of the shortest/longest legs). This crops up he

1.4.6b. TRIANGLE FLIGHT A CLOSED COURSE having three LEGS. The
geometry may be either:
(i) A triangle having two TURN POINTS, or
(ii) A triangle having three TURN POINTS independent of the position
of the START/FINISH POINT. The distance is given by the sum of
the LEGS of the triangle formed by the TURN POINTS. The minimum
OFFICIAL DISTANCE (1.3.9) is 300 kilometres.
For triangle record COURSES of 750 km or more, the length of each LEG
shall be 25% to
45% of the OFFICIAL DISTANCE. For record COURSES shorter than 750 km,
no LEG may
have a length of less than 28% of the OFFICIAL DISTANCE.

Whoo boy. This one sounds complicated, but it is easier if you break
it down.

The geometry prevents you from having a very "flat" triangle where you
basically fly along the ridge and bounce out a few miles to make a
triangle with one very LOOONG leg and two other legs that are only
half as long. SeeYou or other preflight planning software actually
show you how to lay out a triangle that meets these criteria.

Now, you can have either two or three waypoints (plus the start finish
point). If you use three, you are effectively starting/finishing on a
leg. An example would be to call the sheep shed at New Castle the
Start/Finish and declare one point up by Ingalls, another somewhere
way the heck out in West Virginia, and the third somewhere down by Big
Walker (I haven't actually laid it out, just giving you a fer
instance). The triangle distance would only be measured by the
distance around the three declared turnpoints, even though you still
would have to correctly cross the start/finish line or start/finish
sector. Thus, the claimable distance would be a little shorter than
what you actually flew.

All of this is much easier to understand if you have a chart in front
of you as you lay out the course.

Hope this clarifies.

Erik Mann
LS8-18 P3
SSA Badge and Record Committee

On Oct 7, 7:38*pm, Papa3 wrote:
On Oct 6, 4:30*pm, Scott Alexander
wrote:

I have been looking at a ridge on google earth that I've heard many
glider pilots in east tennessee use. *It starts in Jasper, TN and goes
northeast for about 100 kilometers.

If I run this ridge out and back twice will that count for the 300K
diamond "declared" distance?

What if I do 3 out and backs? *Will that count for the 500K diamond
distance?

What about 5 out and backs....1000K....does that count?

Scott

Hi Scott,

You're getting some correct information and some misleading/partial
answers as well.

Let's break it down into chunks. *All references below are from the
current (October 2009) FAI Sporting Code. * Note that the FAI is not
the SSA; these are international achievements.

The diamond badge consists of three components:

2.1.3 Diamonds
There are three Diamonds, each of which may be worn on the Silver or
Gold badge, and
the badges for flights of 750 kilometres or more. NACs should maintain
a register of these
badges and, on notification by a NAC, the FAI will enter the names of
pilots attaining the
three Diamond award in an international register.
a. DIAMOND DISTANCE a distance flight of at least 500 kilometres.
b. DIAMOND GOAL a goal flight of at least 300 kilometres over an out-
and-return
course (1.4.6a) or triangular course (1.4.6b).
c. DIAMOND HEIGHT a gain of height of at least 5000 metres.

Since we're not concerned with the height achievement in your case,
you can achieve your Diamond Distance and Diamond Goal in several
combinations:

1. * The All-in-One: *Fly a 500K triangle or out-and-return and knock
off both the Diamond Distance AND Diamond Goal (hey, while you're at
it, climb to 5,000 meters in wave and be done with the whole badge :-)

2. * The Two-Step: *Fly a 300K out and return or triangle. * *Since
that was so easy, come back the next day and do a 3 turnpoint 500K.
Or, just one-up the 300K and do a 500K triangle or out-and-return.
Your choice.

Since you specified that you want to do out-and-return flights or a
back-and-forth flight on the ridge, the other posters correctly
handled the isssues with the number of turnpoints (3 waypoints plus
the start/finish) and the distance between waypoints (10K).

The above answers the specific questions you asked.

Now, if you're gonna fly a triangle (which is way cooler and more
impressive - chicks dig guys who fly triangles), be sure you
understand the rules regarding the allowable shape (defined by the
length of the shortest/longest legs). *This crops up he

1.4.6b. TRIANGLE FLIGHT A CLOSED COURSE having three LEGS. The
geometry may be either:
(i) A triangle having two TURN POINTS, or
(ii) A triangle having three TURN POINTS independent of the position
of the START/FINISH POINT. The distance is given by the sum of
the LEGS of the triangle formed by the TURN POINTS. The minimum
OFFICIAL DISTANCE (1.3.9) is 300 kilometres.
For triangle record COURSES of 750 km or more, the length of each LEG
shall be 25% to
45% of the OFFICIAL DISTANCE. For record COURSES shorter than 750 km,
no LEG may
have a length of less than 28% of the OFFICIAL DISTANCE.

Whoo boy. *This one sounds complicated, but it is easier if you break
it down.

The geometry prevents you from having a very "flat" triangle where you
basically fly along the ridge and bounce out a few miles to make a
triangle with one very LOOONG leg and two other legs that are only
half as long. * SeeYou or other preflight planning software actually
show you how to lay out a triangle that meets these criteria.

Now, you can have either two or three waypoints (plus the start finish
point). *If you use three, you are effectively starting/finishing on a
leg. * * An example would be to call the sheep shed at New Castle the
Start/Finish and declare one point up by Ingalls, another somewhere
way the heck out in West Virginia, and the third somewhere down by Big
Walker (I haven't actually laid it out, just giving you a fer
instance). * *The triangle distance would only be measured by the
distance around the three declared turnpoints, even though you still
would have to correctly cross the start/finish line or start/finish
sector. * Thus, the claimable distance would be a little shorter than
what you actually flew.

All of this is much easier to understand if you have a chart in front
of you as you lay out the course.

Hope this clarifies.

Erik Mann
LS8-18 P3
SSA Badge and Record Committee


Can we please knock off the cut and pasting rule fragments, this is
diverging and not going to help somebody who clearly could benefit
from starting by reading the rules.

And unfortunately speaking of misleading information.... the triangle
geometry stuff cut and pasted and discussed in the previous post
applies to *records* only not *badges*.

To the original poster. You've seen how many people get this stuff
wrong. Please go rely on yourself and read the rules carefully. After
doing that find a local expert to help you with turnpoint etc.
selection (sounds like you already have that). Find an OO who can
quote you SC3 chapter and verse and is technically savvy with flight
recorders. May be hard to find but do your best. Talk with the OO in
advance and discuss what you want to achieve and what they think you
should do to be prepared, including stuff like flight recorder
calibration and sealing to glider, witnessing stuff, written
declarations, etc. etc.

Have fun!

Darryl

On Oct 8, 3:38*pm, Papa3 wrote:
1.4.6b. TRIANGLE FLIGHT A CLOSED COURSE having three LEGS. The
geometry may be either:
(i) A triangle having two TURN POINTS, or
(ii) A triangle having three TURN POINTS independent of the position
of the START/FINISH POINT. The distance is given by the sum of
the LEGS of the triangle formed by the TURN POINTS. The minimum
OFFICIAL DISTANCE (1.3.9) is 300 kilometres.
For triangle record COURSES of 750 km or more, the length of each LEG
shall be 25% to
45% of the OFFICIAL DISTANCE. For record COURSES shorter than 750 km,
no LEG may
have a length of less than 28% of the OFFICIAL DISTANCE.

Whoo boy. *This one sounds complicated, but it is easier if you break
it down.

The geometry prevents you from having a very "flat" triangle where you
basically fly along the ridge and bounce out a few miles to make a
triangle with one very LOOONG leg and two other legs that are only
half as long.

A 28% rule is much more extreme than that It rules out, for example,
almost all right angle triangles, unless the two shorter legs are very
close to being equal length (which makes them 29.3% of the total).
Even a classic 3,4,5 right angle triangle is illegal, as the shorter
leg is only 25% of the total. An example of the most uneven right
angle triangle that qualifies for the 28% rule is 252,275,373.

Or, to put it another way: none of the interior angles can ever be
bigger than 103.5 degrees (the largest angle in a 28,28,44 triangle --
the other two are 38.2 degrees).

That is really very different to an out and back -- on a 500 km
triangle using a straight ridge for a 44% leg, the center turn point
is at least 87 km from the ridge!

On Wed, 07 Oct 2009 19:38:36 -0700, Papa3 wrote:


The geometry prevents you from having a very "flat" triangle where you
basically fly along the ridge and bounce out a few miles to make a
triangle with one very LOOONG leg and two other legs that are only half
as long. SeeYou or other preflight planning software actually show you
how to lay out a triangle that meets these criteria.

IME it can be quite flat. By way of concrete example of a permissible
long, skinny triangle, I got Diamond Goal and Gold Distance on GRL-BSE-
EDG-GRL in 2004, which counts as an 18.9% triangle. GRL is the apex of
the triangle with BSE-EDG forming the base. Flatness: the base-apex
distance is 0.24 km. For those who don't fly in the UK, GRL is Gransden
Lodge, my home field, BSE is Bury St Edmunds and EDG is Edgehill. If
you're curious about the geometry, the whole story including maps, is
he

http://www.gregorie.org/gliding/300km/040625.html

Since this was acceptable in 2004, has the definition of an acceptable
triangle changed since?


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Oct 8, 4:14*pm, Martin Gregorie
wrote:
On Wed, 07 Oct 2009 19:38:36 -0700, Papa3 wrote:

The geometry prevents you from having a very "flat" triangle where you
basically fly along the ridge and bounce out a few miles to make a
triangle with one very LOOONG leg and two other legs that are only half
as long. * SeeYou or other preflight planning software actually show you
how to lay out a triangle that meets these criteria.

IME it can be quite flat. By way of concrete example of a permissible
long, skinny triangle, I got Diamond Goal and Gold Distance on GRL-BSE-
EDG-GRL in 2004, which counts as an 18.9% triangle. GRL is the apex of
the triangle with BSE-EDG forming the base. Flatness: the base-apex
distance is 0.24 km. For those who don't fly in the UK, GRL is Gransden
Lodge, my home field, BSE is Bury St Edmunds and EDG is Edgehill. If
you're curious about the geometry, the whole story including maps, is
he

http://www.gregorie.org/gliding/300km/040625.html

Since this was acceptable in 2004, has the definition of an acceptable
triangle changed since?

--
martin@ * | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org * * * |

Again read my earlier comment. FAI triangle geometry does NOT apply to
badges. This is not a recent change.

This thread needs to die.

Darryl

On Oct 8, 8:15*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Oct 8, 4:14*pm, Martin Gregorie
wrote:





On Wed, 07 Oct 2009 19:38:36 -0700, Papa3 wrote:

The geometry prevents you from having a very "flat" triangle where you
basically fly along the ridge and bounce out a few miles to make a
triangle with one very LOOONG leg and two other legs that are only half
as long. * SeeYou or other preflight planning software actually show you
how to lay out a triangle that meets these criteria.

IME it can be quite flat. By way of concrete example of a permissible
long, skinny triangle, I got Diamond Goal and Gold Distance on GRL-BSE-
EDG-GRL in 2004, which counts as an 18.9% triangle. GRL is the apex of
the triangle with BSE-EDG forming the base. Flatness: the base-apex
distance is 0.24 km. For those who don't fly in the UK, GRL is Gransden
Lodge, my home field, BSE is Bury St Edmunds and EDG is Edgehill. If
you're curious about the geometry, the whole story including maps, is
he

http://www.gregorie.org/gliding/300km/040625.html

Since this was acceptable in 2004, has the definition of an acceptable
triangle changed since?

--
martin@ * | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org * * * |

Again read my earlier comment. FAI triangle geometry does NOT apply to
badges. This is not a recent change.

This thread needs to die.

Darryl- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

My humblest apologies to Darryl and any others I may have harmed with
my ill-guided attempt to help Scott out. I got carried away (having
some fun) with the descripton of the rules. Of course flat triangles
are not a problem for badges, only for records. Scott, I offer a
full refund on my consulting fees.

Of course, the real point of excerpting rules was to point out that -
yes- the rules actually DO answer all of these questions. You just
have to read them. Having said that, the interpretation is often not
straight forward, and it usually helps to draw pictures to illustrate
the concepts. In this regard, the companion documents to the base
rules (annex C in particular) are very useful. The documents are
available he

http://www.fai.org/gliding/sporting_code

Off for the final race of the year at Fairfield, so over-and-out on
this topic.

P3







Scott,

"Scott Alexander" wrote in message
...
I have been looking at a ridge on google earth that I've heard many
glider pilots in east tennessee use. It starts in Jasper, TN and goes
northeast for about 100 kilometers.

Is Art Mathews's airport still operational for gliders? I flew a diamond
goal out of there years ago but Art was having financial problems keeping
the airport going at the time. What was the outcome and is Art still around?

On Dec 29 2009, 2:16*pm, "Jim" wrote:
"Scott Alexander" wrote in message

...I have been looking at a ridge on google earth that I've heard many
glider pilots in east tennessee use. *It starts in Jasper, TN and goes
northeast for about 100 kilometers.

Is Art Mathews's airport still operational for gliders? I flew a diamond
goal out of there years ago but Art was having financial problems keeping
the airport going at the time. What was the outcome and is Art still around?

Mathews field is closed and they will prosecute you for trespassing if
you land there. We operate out of Marion County airport near Jasper
for Sequatchie (Walden) ridge operations.

On Jan 4, 9:11*am, MP wrote:
On Dec 29 2009, 2:16*pm, "Jim" wrote:

"Scott Alexander" wrote in message

....Ihav e been looking at a ridge on google earth that I've heard many
glider pilots in east tennessee use. *It starts in Jasper, TN and goes
northeast for about 100 kilometers.

Is Art Mathews's airport still operational for gliders? I flew a diamond
goal out of there years ago but Art was having financial problems keeping
the airport going at the time. What was the outcome and is Art still around?

Mathews field is closed and they will prosecute you for trespassing if
you land there. *We operate out of Marion County airport near Jasper
for Sequatchie (Walden) ridge operations.

Someone ran out of Southern hospitality, I guess.

Maybe it's the wx. Sorry about that.

-Evan Ludeman / T8