Cost of ownership

On Sun, 25 Oct 2009 21:50:37 +0200, Bruce wrote:

Basically you get to fly a lot more = partly because a lot of the costs
are fixed, so more flying is effectively at zero marginal cost.

Especially if you're lucky enough to be on a winch site :-)


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Thanks for all the information and some good philosophical
perspectives as well. This year I spent a lot of time and money
renting ships from Soar Minden, Soaring NV, and Williams. over the
last two years I feel privileged to have flown a lot of nice ( and
some not so nice) gliders, including several K-21's, an ASW 24, an ASK
23, an LS-4, a Grob 103, a Discus CS, a Duo Discus, and an ASW 27b.
At the end of it all, I am left with mixed feelings.

It is great to have the luxury of trying out so many different birds.
And I much prefer to take someone else's glider to 27,500 ft as I did
in January at Soaring NV, rather than abusing my own. Additionally,
part of my motivation for renting was to be able to take friends and
family up, either for joy rides (see an amusing video of my daughter
going zero G: http://gallery.me.com/glideplan#100112 ) or perhaps XC
out of Minden with a power pilot friend who is soar-curious.

Most of the challenges with renting have been covered in the previous
posts. For me it really boils down to two things; equipment, and
scheduling. For the most part, the rentals I flew were in great
shape. I want to commend Williams Soaring in particular on this. But
I had my fair share of stuck varios, or misbehaving GPS units, or
gliders that were just under-equiped for serious cross country
flight. On the rare days you can steal away from family or work to
fly, a technical hitch is very frustrating.

Scheduling for me is the biggest hurdle. It's hard enough to get good
soaring weather and a day off to overlap. Overlay glider availability
on top of that, and the result is almost an empty set. I have
committed to renting gliders on marginal days because I had the
weekend blocked out to fly, had driven 5 hrs to get there, and
someone else wanted to rent the glider if I didn't. At the end of the
day I ended up feeling a lot poorer and yet vaguely unfulfilled.

Shared ownerships have some of the same problems. I have observed a
friend, who co-owns a glider with a great partner, give up designated
weekends again and again because of family, work, weather, etc. He
also watches the great weekends go by when he could get away, but
knows he doesn't have the glider. It is true that 1/2 time ownership
should give you plenty of flying hours, if only you could pick and
choose the hours you wanted.

To quote Joe Walsh; "I can't complain, but sometimes I still do". My
father (also Matt Herron) has a beautiful Ventus C which he lets me
fly as often as is possible, and for free! We have worked together to
tune the ship and optimize the instrumentation, so I know it well. It
is a capable and potent XC bird, and has the potential to do well in
the regional contests we both like to fly (the pilots are clearly the
limiting factor here...). But even this arrangement has drawbacks.
For one thing, even though we both share the love of flying, we rarely
get to fly in the air together. (Team flying regional competitions
comes close to this goal.) It would be nice to share some flights
together, like two hikers on a challenging trail with adventurous
stories to tell at the end of the day. Then logistics get in the
way. An extra three hours drive to pick up the glider from wherever
it is and take it to wherever I want to fly, then do the whole thing
in reverse.

Which brings me back to the topic of this thread; I want my own
glider. And given the excellent financial analysis done by several
posters, especially concerning the lost opportunity cost of the cash
tied up in the glider, I can't justify it on financial grounds. How
about needy, selfish, emotional grounds? Hmmm, also kind of a tough
sell. Oh well, a boy can dream, can't he?

Thanks for listening.

Matt (JR)

On Oct 25, 11:48*pm, "Matt Herron Jr." wrote:
Thanks for all the information and some good philosophical
perspectives as well. *This year I spent a lot of time and money
renting ships from Soar Minden, Soaring NV, and Williams. *over the
last two years I feel privileged to have flown a lot of nice ( and
some not so nice) gliders, including several K-21's, an ASW 24, an ASK
23, an LS-4, a Grob 103, a Discus CS, a Duo Discus, and *an ASW 27b.
At the end of it all, I am left with mixed feelings.

It is great to have the luxury of trying out so many different birds.
And I much prefer to take someone else's glider to 27,500 ft as I did
in January at Soaring NV, rather than abusing my own. *Additionally,
part of my motivation for renting was to be able to take friends and
family up, either for joy rides (see an amusing video of my daughter
going zero G: *http://gallery.me.com/glideplan#100112) or perhaps XC
out of Minden with a power pilot friend who is soar-curious.

Most of the challenges with renting have been covered in the previous
posts. *For me it really boils down to two things; equipment, and
scheduling. *For the most part, the rentals I flew were in great
shape. *I want to commend Williams Soaring in particular on this. *But
I had my fair share of stuck varios, or misbehaving GPS units, or
gliders that were just under-equiped for serious cross country
flight. *On the rare days you can steal away from family or work to
fly, a technical hitch is very frustrating.

Scheduling for me is the biggest hurdle. *It's hard enough to get good
soaring weather and a day off to overlap. *Overlay glider availability
on top of that, and the result is almost an empty set. *I have
committed to renting gliders on marginal days because I had the
weekend blocked out to fly, had driven 5 hrs to get there, and
someone else wanted to rent the glider if I didn't. *At the end of the
day I ended up feeling a lot poorer and yet vaguely unfulfilled.

Shared ownerships have some of the same *problems. *I have observed a
friend, who co-owns a glider with a great partner, give up designated
weekends again and again because of family, work, weather, etc. *He
also watches the great weekends go by when he could get away, but
knows he doesn't have the glider. *It is true that 1/2 time ownership
should give you plenty of flying hours, if only you could pick and
choose the hours you wanted.

To quote Joe Walsh; "I can't complain, but sometimes I still do". *My
father (also Matt Herron) has a beautiful Ventus C which he lets me
fly as often as is possible, and for free! *We have worked together to
tune the ship and optimize the instrumentation, so I know it well. *It
is a capable and potent XC bird, and has the potential to do well in
the regional contests we both like to fly (the pilots are clearly the
limiting factor here...). *But even this arrangement has drawbacks.
For one thing, even though we both share the love of flying, we rarely
get to fly in the air together. *(Team flying regional competitions
comes close to this goal.) *It would be nice to share some flights
together, like two hikers on a challenging trail with adventurous
stories to tell at the end of the day. *Then logistics get in the
way. *An extra three hours drive to pick up the glider from wherever
it is and take it to wherever I want to fly, then do the whole thing
in reverse.

Which brings me back to the topic of this thread; *I want my own
glider. *And given the excellent financial analysis done by several
posters, especially concerning the lost opportunity cost of the cash
tied up in the glider, I can't justify it on financial grounds. *How
about needy, selfish, emotional grounds? *Hmmm, also kind of a tough
sell. *Oh well, a boy can dream, can't he?

Thanks for listening.

Matt (JR)

Get a glider. Maybe not a $50K+, 50/1 glider, but there are many 40/1
gliders out there for under $25k. It WILL be worth it. I have about
$20k in my glider. I spend nearly $3500 a year in insurance, tows,
and maintenance (mostly tows), and fly an average of 110 hours a
year. It's the best investment I've ever made, bar none.

On Oct 26, 10:56*am, Uncle Fuzzy wrote:
*It's the best investment I've ever made, bar none.

No, it's a capital expense... (and probably well worth it, yes).

-T8

Personal property or use tax: *This varies considerably by state and
generally applies both to gliders and trailers. *In California use tax
is basically a sales tax on non-retail sales. It is generally imposed
on the purchaser of tangible personal property that is used, consumed,
or stored in-state. Private party sales or brokered transactions are
normally subject to use tax. If the first use of the property occurs
in California, use tax may apply even if the purchaser is not a
resident of the state. *In San Mateo County where you live the use tax
is 9.25%. The address on the FAA title/registration will rat you out
to the state taxing authorities. For more info see:

http://www.boe.ca.gov/sutax/faqtrans.htm


I have in the past gotten out of paying use tax by arguing that a
glider does
not constitute an "aircraft" as defined in Reg 1610. Perhaps they're
getting more
strict now that the state is bankrupt.

Liam wrote:
Personal property or use tax: This varies considerably by state and
generally applies both to gliders and trailers. In California use tax
is basically a sales tax on non-retail sales. It is generally imposed
on the purchaser of tangible personal property that is used, consumed,
or stored in-state. Private party sales or brokered transactions are
normally subject to use tax. If the first use of the property occurs
in California, use tax may apply even if the purchaser is not a
resident of the state. In San Mateo County where you live the use tax
is 9.25%. The address on the FAA title/registration will rat you out
to the state taxing authorities. For more info see:

http://www.boe.ca.gov/sutax/faqtrans.htm


I have in the past gotten out of paying use tax by arguing that a
glider does
not constitute an "aircraft" as defined in Reg 1610. Perhaps they're
getting more
strict now that the state is bankrupt.



Unless they have changed the law in the last couple of years, there is
no use tax in California on a used glider (as long as it does not have
an engine).

T8 wrote:
On Oct 26, 10:56 am, Uncle Fuzzy wrote:
It's the best investment I've ever made, bar none.

No, it's a capital expense... (and probably well worth it, yes).

-T8



Puts thinking hat on - Concludes that:

As always people make the mistake of concentrating on the cost as
opposed to the value of things.

On Oct 26, 2:42*pm, Bruce wrote:
T8 wrote:
On Oct 26, 10:56 am, Uncle Fuzzy wrote:
*It's the best investment I've ever made, bar none.

No, it's a capital expense... (and probably well worth it, yes).

-T8

Puts thinking hat on - Concludes that:

As always people make the mistake of concentrating on the cost as
opposed to the value of things.

Value is obvious to everyone in this thread. Merits no discussion.

Cost is a barrier issue of significant importance to many in the
sport. As such, it does merit discussion.

-T8

No use tax in California on the purchase of a used glider.
However, they will tag you for property tax. You will pay property
tax at the rate for the geographic location that you store your glider
at (or declare that you are storing it at). Each county has a
different rate.
Guy

On Oct 26, 9:30*pm, Guy wrote:
No use tax in California on the purchase of a used glider.
However, they will tag you for property tax. *You will pay property
tax at the rate for the geographic location that you store your glider
at (or declare that you are storing it at). *Each county has a
different rate.
Guy

I think I am glad I live in Oregon.
Mark