? For Ed Rasimus

Paul Michael Brown wrote:

Marshall Michel's "Clashes" covers the MiG engagements, but is flawed
in that he doesn't name participants and only uses call-sign for
engagements. If you are familiar, you can discern Olds, Richie,
Cunningham, Madden and others.

Even worse, Michel admits that "not all of the call signs used . . . in
the engagement descriptions are the ones actually used on the missions . .
. . a significant number, however, are generic ones." (Footnote on p. 8.)
I found this distracting and unsat. But as Mr. Rasimus notes if you are a
student of the SEA air war you can figure out who was flying in some of
the better known engagements.

snip

I'd like to point that they weren't, strictly speaking, generic callsigns.
Where Marshall didn't use the actual callsigns, it was because he was working
from Red Baron event reports as opposed to other sources. Red Baron doesn't
use the actual callsigns; rather it assigns callsigns by type of mission, to
de-personalize the combats. So, all MiGCAP/escort flights are given names of
U.S. cities (Ocala, Boulder, Tucson, etc.), strike flights receive metal
element or alloy callsigns (Copper, Iron, Bronze, etc.) and all support
flights, e.g. chaffers, weasels and H/K, jammers etc., receive fish names
(Tuna, Trout, Marlin etc.) These callsigns are used once only in Red Baron,
so there's no duplication. Here's some typical Red Baron event listings
(picked out from the Red Baron III event summary) of otherwise well-known
combats:

"20. 10 May 1972/1055H
Tahoe: Four F-4Ds on MiGCAP, 01/03 COMBAT TREE equipped, engaged four MiG-21s
and destroyed three. While maneuvering on the fourth, Lead was downed by two
MiG-19s."

"27. 10 May 1972/1408H
Fallon: When two flak-suppression F-4Js engaged MiGs in the target area, Lead
bagged three -17s. On egress Lead was downed by a SAM."

Anyone familiar with the subject matter can immediately identify Oyster flight
(Lodge/Locher in 01, Ritchie/DeBellevue in 03, etc.) for "Tahoe" flight in
event 20, and "Cunningham/Driscoll in Showtime 100 with Grant/Sullivan on
their wing in Showtime ??", for "Fallon" flight in event 27.

Here's a slightly more obscure one:

"35. 20 May 1972/1300H
Indy: Four F-4Ds on MiGCAP were attacked by two MiG-21s. In a hard break, 02
went out of control and crashed."

Ritchie was in 01 (I don't know the actual flight callsign); this was his
wingman John Markle (Jim Williams was his WSO). Markle had also claimed a
kill on 10 May as part of Oyster flight.

Guy

"Guy Alcala" wrote in message
. ..
I'd like to point that they weren't, strictly speaking, generic callsigns.
Where Marshall didn't use the actual callsigns, it was because he was
working
from Red Baron event reports as opposed to other sources. Red Baron
doesn't
use the actual callsigns; rather it assigns callsigns by type of mission,
to
de-personalize the combats. So, all MiGCAP/escort flights are given names
of
U.S. cities (Ocala, Boulder, Tucson, etc.), strike flights receive metal
element or alloy callsigns (Copper, Iron, Bronze, etc.) and all support
flights, e.g. chaffers, weasels and H/K, jammers etc., receive fish names
(Tuna, Trout, Marlin etc.) These callsigns are used once only in Red
Baron,
so there's no duplication. Here's some typical Red Baron event listings
(picked out from the Red Baron III event summary) of otherwise well-known
combats:
snipped

For actual callsigns on the F-105 MiG kills see the table at:
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/7002/mig_kill.html . At least I think
they are the actual ones. Some were still in use when I was there later.

Tex

Tex Houston wrote:

"Guy Alcala" wrote in message
. ..
I'd like to point that they weren't, strictly speaking, generic callsigns.
Where Marshall didn't use the actual callsigns, it was because he was
working
from Red Baron event reports as opposed to other sources. Red Baron
doesn't
use the actual callsigns; rather it assigns callsigns by type of mission,
to
de-personalize the combats. So, all MiGCAP/escort flights are given names
of
U.S. cities (Ocala, Boulder, Tucson, etc.), strike flights receive metal
element or alloy callsigns (Copper, Iron, Bronze, etc.) and all support
flights, e.g. chaffers, weasels and H/K, jammers etc., receive fish names
(Tuna, Trout, Marlin etc.) These callsigns are used once only in Red
Baron,
so there's no duplication. Here's some typical Red Baron event listings
(picked out from the Red Baron III event summary) of otherwise well-known
combats:
snipped

For actual callsigns on the F-105 MiG kills see the table at:
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/7002/mig_kill.html . At least I think
they are the actual ones. Some were still in use when I was there later.

Yes, they are the actual callsigns (I've got the full list from "Aces and Aerial
Victories," which has all USAF kill claims). OTOH, Red Baron doesn't just list
US kills (from both services, unlike A&AV), it lists ALL A/A encounters whether
they resulted in kill claims for our side, the other side, both, or neither. So
you get listings such as the following:

"3. 15 Jan 1972/1630H
Denver: Two F-4Ds, Lead equipped with COMBAT TREE, were scrambled to attack a
single MiG-21; they fired a total of nine missiles with no damage observed."

"4. 17 Jan 1972/1735H
Phoenix: Two F-4Ds, Lead COMBAT TREE equipped, were scrambled to intercept two
MiGs in Barrel Roll (Laos). The MiGs fired three ATOLLS; no damage."

"13. 27 APR 1972/1736H
Norfolk: When GCI called 'merged plots,' two F-4Bs on MIGCAP turned to the
MIG's last known heading and were attacked from six o'clock; 02 was destroyed."

Guy

"Pechs1" wrote in message If it's not too much trouble, a list of VietNam
air war books you would
recommend...thanks in advance-
P. C. Chisholm

No libraries in your village?

BYU- No libraries in your village? BRBR

Sure, the same library that is hosting the Rocky Mtn Peace and Justice center's
peace demnostration this WE...questions??
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

On 04 Feb 2004 16:08:40 GMT, (Pechs1) wrote:

BYU- No libraries in your village? BRBR

Sure, the same library that is hosting the Rocky Mtn Peace and Justice center's
peace demnostration this WE...questions??
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

OOOpppps! Not Boulder, I hope.

I served 10 years on the Board of Trustees of the Pikes Peak Library
District. A fighter pilot on a library board is a bit of an unnatural
act, but I had a lot of fun and we got a lot done. We did have to keep
a balance in the events, so there were both left-wing and right-wing
events.

Did a panel on terrorism about a year ago at Colorado College (very
left) with a Peace & Justice wimp and a couple of other apologists.
Was the only warrior-type, but pulled no punches. There are some
things worth fighting for and NO, we didn't cause 9/11, the cowardly
terrorists did. They just don't get it.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Ed- OOOpppps! Not Boulder, I hope. BRBR

Yep, the People's Republic of Boulder, 35 square miles surrounded by reality.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

(Pechs1) wrote in message ...
Ed- OOOpppps! Not Boulder, I hope. BRBR

Yep, the People's Republic of Boulder, 35 square miles surrounded by reality.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

Damn! How'd they let you in there? I'm over in Greeley, and feel right
at home here with all the died-in-the-wool conservatives.
BTW there's a damn good book about FAC flying called "Above the Tree
Tops".
'Yankee Station" is ****hot but I bet you got that one.
Walt BJ

Combat Buckeye
?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????

FOFLMAO


--
jim morris

AKA the "Mississippi MiG."

--
Mike Kanze

"Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn't mean politics
won't take an interest in you."

- Pericles (430 B.C.)


"Jim Morris" wrote in message
. com...
Combat Buckeye
?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????

FOFLMAO


--
jim morris