gunpods on Phantoms

"Pechs1" wrote in message
...
We used 4.0 day time, 5.1 night time or non-case 1 daytime. We used to
pull the
cb on tank 7 so it wouldn't transfer...held it until recovery so you could
be
5.1 twice on the ball if ya went into the penalty box. The CG thing w/o
sparrows aft wasn't a big deal.

Just enough change in CG to assist in pitch rate a bit. Once I got
reasonably proficient in the jet I could tell the difference between a late
and early block jet ... the early (non-transferring) being the preferred
ride.

R / John

robvr- Almost makes sense, mainly because I never flew anything myself, let
alone a Navy jet. Would 2 and 2 mean 2 Sparrow, 2 Sidewinder? What do
max trap values mean? BRBR

Max trap for the F-4 was 40,000 pounds. Empty F-4S weighed about 34k, F-4J was
33000 or so. 2 and 2 weighed about 1500 lbs. Only 6000 to play with to get to
40k. If ya added a 2000 lb gun pod(2000 or 1000??), then max trap fuel was
kinda low.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

But the most fuel weight (regardless of configuration) was 5.1 for an empty
tank 7, 5.8 with it full. No fun was night recovery with 2x2 ordnance and
1/2 flaps (util failure or in my case, a flap switch failure). 1.8 on the
ball for an actual weight pass with about 40 knots of wind.

R / John

"Pechs1" wrote in message
...
robvr- Almost makes sense, mainly because I never flew anything myself,
let
alone a Navy jet. Would 2 and 2 mean 2 Sparrow, 2 Sidewinder? What do
max trap values mean? BRBR

Max trap for the F-4 was 40,000 pounds. Empty F-4S weighed about 34k, F-4J
was
33000 or so. 2 and 2 weighed about 1500 lbs. Only 6000 to play with to get
to
40k. If ya added a 2000 lb gun pod(2000 or 1000??), then max trap fuel was
kinda low.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye
Phlyer

John- But the most fuel weight (regardless of configuration) was 5.1 for an
empty
tank 7, 5.8 with it full. No fun was night recovery with 2x2 ordnance and
1/2 flaps (util failure or in my case, a flap switch failure). 1.8 on the
ball for an actual weight pass with about 40 knots of wind. BRBR

Yowser-with or w/o ail droop?
Blue water, I assume? If ya went around, into the barricade? Could they get
enough WOD for that(115kt max engaging speed(?)).

I saw a 1/2 flap, really damaged F-4 go thru the net like it wasn't there.
Exceeded the max engaging speed by a lot..BUT it slowed it down enough so the
jet wasn't flying. Both guys shelled out, neither made it. VF-102, USS
Independence, 1977 or so.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

(Pechs1) wrote:
robvr- Navy Phantoms were capable of carrying
a 20mm gunpod, but there is an
abundance of references stating this weapon
was worse than useless for
air to air use, and thus not carried. BRBR

The biggest obstacle was the weight of the thing
and how ya had to 'bring it
back'. If ya had 2 and 2 and the pod, max trap
was in the 4.0 range. Plus wing
tanks got the crap beat outta them on the boat.


P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter
and Combat Buckeye Phlyer
I always wondered why Navy Phantoms never carried the gun pod, despite
requests from pilots to have a gun. Didn't Randy Cunningham say that if he
had a gun on 10 May '72 he would've had several more MiG kills?

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(Rob van Riel) wrote:

Navy Phantoms were capable of carrying a 20mm gunpod, but there is an
abundance of references stating this weapon was worse than useless for
air to air use, and thus not carried. However, I can't really find any
reference on the use of the gun in air to ground work. I know Air
Force Phantoms used gunpods for this, but did the Navy?

They may not exactly have been 'useless' for air-to-air, the
USAF's 366th TFW "Gunfighters" scored a number of times with the pod.

Interesting info from Pechs1 about trap weight, though. The
USN may have had additional issues due to the gun getting banged about
during traps.



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John,

The USN may have had additional issues due to the gun getting banged about
during traps.

Not just traps. Aircraft handling - particularly on a crowded hangar deck -
is not conducive to the health and longevity of protruding "attachments."
The EA-6B folks - with jamming pods that cost (circa 1972) $1 million a
pop - learned early on that "sailors and pods don't mix."

--
Mike Kanze

"When you're majoring in abnormal psychology, ALL television is
educational!"

- Frank & Ernest, 3/9/04


"John S. Shinal" wrote in message
...
(Rob van Riel) wrote:

Navy Phantoms were capable of carrying a 20mm gunpod, but there is an
abundance of references stating this weapon was worse than useless for
air to air use, and thus not carried. However, I can't really find any
reference on the use of the gun in air to ground work. I know Air
Force Phantoms used gunpods for this, but did the Navy?

They may not exactly have been 'useless' for air-to-air, the
USAF's 366th TFW "Gunfighters" scored a number of times with the pod.

Interesting info from Pechs1 about trap weight, though. The
USN may have had additional issues due to the gun getting banged about
during traps.



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"Mike Kanze" wrote in message ...
John,

The USN may have had additional issues due to the gun getting banged about
during traps.

Not just traps. Aircraft handling - particularly on a crowded hangar deck -
is not conducive to the health and longevity of protruding "attachments."
The EA-6B folks - with jamming pods that cost (circa 1972) $1 million a
pop - learned early on that "sailors and pods don't mix."

.... or 'sailors and props' having on more than one instance had major
dings put in my props while the plane was buried on the hangar deck.
Severity of damage/inability to repair was directly proportional to
proximity of fly-off too...

Will Dossel
Last of the Steeljaws (VAW-122)

(John S. Shinal) wrote in message ...
(Rob van Riel) wrote:

Navy Phantoms were capable of carrying a 20mm gunpod, but there is an
abundance of references stating this weapon was worse than useless for
air to air use, and thus not carried. However, I can't really find any
reference on the use of the gun in air to ground work. I know Air
Force Phantoms used gunpods for this, but did the Navy?

They may not exactly have been 'useless' for air-to-air, the
USAF's 366th TFW "Gunfighters" scored a number of times with the pod.

If I recall correctly, that was a different gun in a different pod. I
seem to remember reading the shots tended to scatter too widely to be
very good at dogfighting (though not useless, as you pointed out), but
this same scattering made it a good weapon for strafing.

Rob

John S. Shinal wrote:
(Rob van Riel) wrote:

Navy Phantoms were capable of carrying a 20mm gunpod, but there is an
abundance of references stating this weapon was worse than useless
for
air to air use, and thus not carried. However, I can't really find
any
reference on the use of the gun in air to ground work. I know Air
Force Phantoms used gunpods for this, but did the Navy?

They may not exactly have been 'useless' for air-to-air, the
USAF's 366th TFW "Gunfighters" scored a number of times with the pod.

There were actually three different pods in play here, I believe. THe Air
Force had the SUU-16 and SUU-23, both based on Gatling guns and both, I
belive, using linkelss feeds.

The Navy was using a different pod, the Mk 4, with the rather unusual
dual-barrel Mk 11 revolver canon. I've heard some rather unfavorable
remarks about the MK 4, that it was no good at all for air-to-air becuase it
jammed if you pulled G while firing (it was belt-fed, not linkless). But I
don't know this as a fact.

--
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"Our country, right or wrong. When right, to be kept right, when
wrong to be put right." - Senator Carl Schurz, 1872