Forgiving sailplanes

bildan wrote:
On Jul 20, 2:55 pm, John wrote:
bildan wrote:
My experience is the difference between the worst and
best handling glider is fairly small.

No. Give a low-time student an ASK-21 and he will happily thermal away.
Give the same student a Fox and he will kill himself.

....
Let me repeat my key point - you can't buy safety, you have to earn it
....

Without any doubt. But you claimed that the difference in handling among
gliders was "fairly small". And this just isn't so.

On Jul 20, 10:35*am, EvValentin808
wrote:
Can anyone give me a list of forgiving sailplanes out there. I know some
like the Schweizers, *Rudolf Kaiser's designs(Schleicher K-series) and
the Discus... Any other to list?

--
EvValentin808

[ Smile ] My ASW-15 probably forgave me many times!

Actually the ASW-15 is a great ship - quick to turn - "talks" through
the wings and always got me to an airport - albeit not always the home
airport!

On Jul 20, 7:35*am, EvValentin808
wrote:
Can anyone give me a list of forgiving sailplanes out there. I know some
like the Schweizers, *Rudolf Kaiser's designs(Schleicher K-series) and
the Discus... Any other to list?

--
EvValentin808

Well it's obvious from the replies thus far that you will need to
define what you mean by "forgiving".

it could range from - If I hit something really hard with it will I
die.

to

If I make the slightest uncoordinated control input will I spin down
through the gaggle and take out three of my friends

to

If the drogue chute fails to deploy do have any chance of making an
off airport landing without breaking the glider

to

If I fart is it well enough ventilated that I won't pass out, enter an
unrecoverable spin, and die

or maybe

If I don't make perfect control inputs all the time will it cost me
more than .05% performance.

What did you mean?? What forgiveness are you seeking?

Andy

Andy wrote:
On Jul 20, 7:35*am, EvValentin808
wrote:
Can anyone give me a list of forgiving sailplanes out there. I know some
like the Schweizers, *Rudolf Kaiser's designs(Schleicher K-series) and
the Discus... Any other to list?

--
EvValentin808

Well it's obvious from the replies thus far that you will need to
define what you mean by "forgiving".

I thought he defined "forgiving" by providing examples?

it could range from - If I hit something really hard with it will I
die.

Can you do that with the examples he gave? (After the abuse I put on an
SGS 2-33A and living to tell the tale....)

If I make the slightest uncoordinated control input will I spin down
through the gaggle and take out three of my friends

How about three enemies?

What did you mean?? What forgiveness are you seeking?

Maybe he wants a Catholic glider?

"Forgive me Father, for I have spinned...."

;-)

On Jul 20, 5:24*pm, John Smith wrote:
bildan wrote:
On Jul 20, 2:55 pm, John *wrote:
bildan wrote:
My experience is the difference between the worst and
best handling glider is fairly small.

No. Give a low-time student an ASK-21 and he will happily thermal away..
Give the same student a Fox and he will kill himself.

... Let me repeat my key point - you can't buy safety, you have to earn it

...

Without any doubt. But you claimed that the difference in handling among
gliders was "fairly small". And this just isn't so.


It is so.

If you step outside the cloistered world of sailplanes into the world
of airplanes you'll find very wide differences. Withing the wide
world of aviation, sailplanes exist in a "fairly small" envelope of
handling qualities. There are outliers, of course, but the majority
are pretty much alike in being very benign, gentle aircraft. Pilots
whose entire experience is limited to sailplanes may tend to magnify
small differences others wouldn't notice.

I've never flown a glider with a 'bad rep' which lived up to it and I
have more than 200 types in my logbook. I once owned a Lark IS28B2
which, in come circles, has a bad reputation for unintentional spins.
You'll hear things like, "It'll just drop out from under you." This
isn't true.

I took one such pilot for a BFR check ride in the Lark. When I asked
him to demonstrate slow flight, he didn't notice the glider's
pronounced pre-stall buffet. It was shaking the glider until stuff
fell off the Velcro but HE was shaking even more than the glider.
When I took the controls, calmed him down and asked him to feel the
buffet, I was able to tell him, "See, it warns you before it stalls -
just feel for the buffet." For him it was an epiphany - he really
enjoyed the rest of the flight.

Same thing with a 2-32 which is a big old sweetheart. It has a nice
little shake to the stick which tells you it's too slow but you won't
feel it if you have a death grip. Yes, it'll spin but not without
warning.

On 7/20/2010 3:57 PM, bildan wrote:
Let me repeat my key point - you can't buy safety, you have to earn it
with training, practice and RESPECT. If a pilot is so concerned about
his ability he's seeking to buy a 'safe'glider, he should spend his
money on more training.

I believe you can buy safety, or at least more safety. Gliders are not
all certified to the same standard, and that is why the older gliders,
like the Std Cirrus, are not as forgiving as the newer gliders. And the
safety you can buy is not just easier handling, but things like
automatic hookups and crash-resistant cockpits.

But don't understand my use of the word "buy" to mean just "spend more
money"; it's more about the glider you select, not the amount you pay
for it. My real message: some gliders are safer to fly because they land
more slowly, have excellent glidepath control, don't want to spin, give
plenty of warning, recover quickly from mishandling, and generally offer
more protection screwups in a variety of ways.

A pilot that is qualified to assemble and fly a Nimbus 4 will have a
greater margin in an ASK 21. A pilot that can't manage a Nimbus 4 can
still be a very safe pilot in a Blanik. Gliders are not the same across
the spectrum available to the buyer.

I've flown my ASH 26 E for 15 years and 3000 hours with out any
accidents, so I believe I'm qualified to fly it. Do I believe I'd be
safer in an ASK 21? Yes! Occasionally, I do fly a slower, simpler
glider, and I'm amazed at how easy it is. It reminds that my safety
margins are smaller with my ASH 26 E, but I accept that because I enjoy
it so much it's worth the risk.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (netto to net to email me)

- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

bildan wrote:
I don't think you can "buy" safety

I don't think you can buy absolute safety either. But damned if I can see
what that has to do with the OP's question.

Do you think pilots wanting seat belts in their aircraft is a sign they are
danger to themselves and others?

On Jul 20, 9:35*am, EvValentin808
wrote:
Can anyone give me a list of forgiving sailplanes out there. I know some
like the Schweizers, *Rudolf Kaiser's designs(Schleicher K-series) and
the Discus... Any other to list?

--
EvValentin808

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYDdE...eature=related

This is one way a sailplane can be forgiving. I believe the pilot
flew it the next day. The only damage was an aileron bell crank cover
which popped off. Kudos to the pilot, this was a sudden storm which
came up during a contest, several other gliders landed out and this
one, coming in very fast saw another glider which had skidded into a
180 in front of him. He initiated a course correction to avoid
hitting the other glider.

On Jul 20, 11:04*pm, Steve wrote:
On Jul 20, 9:35*am, EvValentin808

wrote:
Can anyone give me a list of forgiving sailplanes out there. I know some
like the Schweizers, *Rudolf Kaiser's designs(Schleicher K-series) and
the Discus... Any other to list?

--
EvValentin808

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYDdE...eature=related

This is one way a sailplane can be forgiving. *I believe the pilot
flew it the next day. *The only damage was an aileron bell crank cover
which popped off. *Kudos to the pilot, this was a sudden storm which
came up during a contest, several other gliders landed out and this
one, coming in very fast saw another glider which had skidded into a
180 in front of him. *He initiated a course correction to avoid
hitting the other glider.

Actually, I think this video illustrates one of Bill's (other) points
fairly well.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

On Jul 20, 11:04*pm, Steve wrote:
On Jul 20, 9:35*am, EvValentin808

wrote:
Can anyone give me a list of forgiving sailplanes out there. I know some
like the Schweizers, *Rudolf Kaiser's designs(Schleicher K-series) and
the Discus... Any other to list?

--
EvValentin808

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYDdE...eature=related

This is one way a sailplane can be forgiving. *I believe the pilot
flew it the next day. *The only damage was an aileron bell crank cover
which popped off. *Kudos to the pilot, this was a sudden storm which
came up during a contest, several other gliders landed out and this
one, coming in very fast saw another glider which had skidded into a
180 in front of him. *He initiated a course correction to avoid
hitting the other glider.

I think that video provides a great illustration of Bill's points on
airmanship.

I don't know who got away with this landing... but I do hope that he
isn't tempted to try something like this again.

And yeah... I've done dumb stuff too. No ivory tower here.

-Evan Ludeman / T8