First Time Buyer. Help!

Here's the best advice you can receive;

1. Join the type club for the particular aircraft you're considering.
They'll be able to tell you the do's and don'ts of the units as well
as the performance specs of the various year models..

2. Get a prebuy done by a mechanic knowledgable in the model you're
considering.

3. See #2

4. See #2

5. See #2

Good luck


On 3 Apr 2004 05:09:51 -0800, (KayInPA)
wrote:

Hello,

I am seriously considering the purchase of an airplane and would like
to ask the group for potential dos and don'ts. I would so appreciate
any guidance, advice, or practical tips other pilots in this newsgroup
could offer. Also, to ask about any financial considerations that my
not be obvious to a first time owner.

If I decide to go forward, I'll be buying the airplane with a partner;
a friend of mine who is beginning his instrument studies. We are
looking in the $60k - $100k price range and prefer Cessnas because
we're training in 172s. However, if we find the right deal, other
manufacturers might also be considered.

Thanks so much in advance for any help you could give us.

On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 07:36:42 -0600, Stu Gotts
wrote:

Here's the best advice you can receive;

1. Join the type club for the particular aircraft you're considering.
They'll be able to tell you the do's and don'ts of the units as well
as the performance specs of the various year models..

Excellent! Thanks for this tip, it makes perfect sense.

2. Get a prebuy done by a mechanic knowledgable in the model you're
considering.

3. See #2

4. See #2

5. See #2


OK.

Good luck

--
Kay
Student Pilot
email: remove "ns" from "aviationns"









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"KayInPA" wrote in message
...

Kay
Student Pilot

I would very much suggest you hold off on buying an airplane while you are a
student pilot. Get your private and then figure out what your typical
flying mission will be like. Many (most?) pilots find out that their
aviation goals and missions change once they get their private and start
flying for pleasure.

Even if your goal is to get your instrument rating, I am not sure it makes
sense to buy an airplane just for that goal. The cost of owning an airplane
is substantially more than the cost of an IFR rating, and one way airplane
owners often SUBSTANTIALLY increase their costs is by buying an airplane
which does not meet their needs and then trading up in 1-2 years.

You need to hold onto an airplane for 5+ years in order to make the
economics of maintenance somewhat realistic. Buying a 172 to complete your
IFR training -- only to realize you really need a 182 given the
distance/payload of your trips -- would be way way more expensive than
getting your IFR rating in a rental 172.


--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

I would have to disagree with you Richard.

I bought my plane at about 25 hours. I was incredibly bored with the planes
I was renting. The new plane was so much nicer to fly. I flew much more
often, and enjoyed it much more.

Also, if you buy a new plane, it can make sense to move up much sooner than
5 years because of depreciation rules. If you buy used, you can usually get
most of what you paid for the plane if not more (assuming you don't get
taken on the buy). So I really don't get your 5 year rule.

Now, if you figure you really need a 182 for your mission, and you are not
ready to own one, then it would make sense to rent a 172 until then.

On the other hand, if what you really want is an Archer, and it meets your
needs, then why wait?

A more important factor may be the time it takes to BE an airplane owner.
Imagine dealing with your car mechanic on nearly a monthly basis. You are
already taking time out of your schedule to learn to fly, it you buy a used
plane, you could be adding another part time job to your schedule.


"Richard Kaplan" wrote in message
s.com...

"KayInPA" wrote in message
...

Kay
Student Pilot

I would very much suggest you hold off on buying an airplane while you are
a
student pilot. Get your private and then figure out what your typical
flying mission will be like. Many (most?) pilots find out that their
aviation goals and missions change once they get their private and start
flying for pleasure.

Even if your goal is to get your instrument rating, I am not sure it makes
sense to buy an airplane just for that goal. The cost of owning an
airplane
is substantially more than the cost of an IFR rating, and one way airplane
owners often SUBSTANTIALLY increase their costs is by buying an airplane
which does not meet their needs and then trading up in 1-2 years.

You need to hold onto an airplane for 5+ years in order to make the
economics of maintenance somewhat realistic. Buying a 172 to complete
your
IFR training -- only to realize you really need a 182 given the
distance/payload of your trips -- would be way way more expensive than
getting your IFR rating in a rental 172.


--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

"Dude" wrote in message
...


I bought my plane at about 25 hours. I was incredibly bored with the
planes
I was renting. The new plane was so much nicer to fly. I flew much more
often, and enjoyed it much more.

How long have you owned this plane? If you have owned it 5+ years, then
yes, it was a good deal. If that time has not yet elapsed, then time will
tell if it meets your needs as your flying habits evolve.

Also, if you buy a new plane, it can make sense to move up much sooner
than
5 years because of depreciation rules. If you buy used, you can usually
get

A student pilot buying a new plane?!? $200K invested in a very recently
aquired hobby?

most of what you paid for the plane if not more (assuming you don't get
taken on the buy). So I really don't get your 5 year rule.

If you sell a used plane within a few years of buying it, you will no doubt
have spent more money in catch-up maintenance than you can realistically
recover when you sell it.

On the other hand, if what you really want is an Archer, and it meets your
needs, then why wait?

Because at 25 hours it is unlikely you will know what you really want.
Your needs will change, you will prefer X-ctry or aerobatics or you will
need to go into short strips or you will need extended range or who knows
what else will change.



--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

If I decide to go forward, I'll be buying the airplane with a partner;
a friend of mine who is beginning his instrument studies. We are
looking in the $60k - $100k price range and prefer Cessnas because
we're training in 172s. However, if we find the right deal, other
manufacturers might also be considered.

Hi Kay,

Personally, I would recommend renting a wide variety of aircraft for a short
time -- six months to a year -- after getting your ticket. Expose yourself
to as many different makes and models as possible, before you decide to
purchase one.

You may find that you prefer something different than what you trained in,
and purchasing the wrong plane can be expensive. (Although it's hard to go
too wrong with a 172. You can always sell it for darned near what you paid
for it.)

As for finances, do NOT try to justify your purchase financially. Owning an
aircraft can be done for convenience, or business, or enjoyment, or a hobby,
or training, or a billion other reasons -- but it cannot be done to "save
money."

That said, I wouldn't trade it for the world. The knowledge that I can go
from Iowa to Florida in 6.5 hours -- at a moment's notice -- provides a
great deal of "value" to me -- especially in winter. :-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 14:46:26 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

Personally, I would recommend renting a wide variety of aircraft for a short
time -- six months to a year -- after getting your ticket. Expose yourself
to as many different makes and models as possible, before you decide to
purchase one.

Actually, this is what my instructor is recommending as well. I think
it's great advice. On the other hand, 6 months will come and go
before a blink of an eye and I'd like to get started on the planning
part of this before hand. I believe it's going to take some time to
work out the partnership arrangements, find a mechanic, decide on the
home field etc. In the meantime, I will take you up on your
suggestion and fly different kinds of aircraft. First on the list is
the FBO's Piper Arrow.

You may find that you prefer something different than what you trained in,
and purchasing the wrong plane can be expensive. (Although it's hard to go
too wrong with a 172. You can always sell it for darned near what you paid
for it.)

Exactly what we were thinking: Purchase a forgiving airplane for
learning instruments that will not be too hard to sell later on and
that won't lose much of its value.

As for finances, do NOT try to justify your purchase financially. Owning an
aircraft can be done for convenience, or business, or enjoyment, or a hobby,
or training, or a billion other reasons -- but it cannot be done to "save
money."

I know! But try selling that to my husband. The numbers need to
work at least mythically before we sign on the dotted line for a hobby
of mine. Going for me is the fact that we signed on a similar dotted
line for his hobby a few years ago: a very painful check for a golf
club membership. Now, if there's a hobby expense that makes less
sense financially than airplane ownership, it must be golf club
membership. (Conduct business out there?... Oh, um, uh-huh. )

That said, I wouldn't trade it for the world. The knowledge that I can go
from Iowa to Florida in 6.5 hours -- at a moment's notice -- provides a
great deal of "value" to me -- especially in winter. :-)

Jay, that's the lure indeed. Thanks so much for your post!

--
Kay
Student Pilot
email: remove "ns" from "aviationns"









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I know! But try selling that to my husband. The numbers need to
work at least mythically before we sign on the dotted line for a hobby
of mine.

This is the way we started ten years ago, only the other way around -- I was
a pilot first. My wife, Mary, got her ticket five years later -- and we've
spent the last five years sharing flight-time equally, and flying with our
kids all over the country!

The main thing is to get your husband interested enough to get HIS pilot's
certificate. Then you've got it made in the shade! :-)

Going for me is the fact that we signed on a similar dotted
line for his hobby a few years ago: a very painful check for a golf
club membership. Now, if there's a hobby expense that makes less
sense financially than airplane ownership, it must be golf club
membership. (Conduct business out there?... Oh, um, uh-huh. )

Hee hee! Mary and I used to golf, before I got my ticket. Now, when asked
to describe flying to a total stranger, our usual response is "It ain't
golf..."

That's the trouble with flying -- once you've tasted it, EVERYTHING else is
boring. The last time I golfed, all I could do was watch the planes flying
over, wishing I was up THERE spending my money, rather than down here on the
turf, chasing that stupid white ball.... ;-)

That was over 8 years ago, and I don't miss it at all.

That said, I wouldn't trade it for the world. The knowledge that I can
go
from Iowa to Florida in 6.5 hours -- at a moment's notice -- provides a
great deal of "value" to me -- especially in winter. :-)

Jay, that's the lure indeed. Thanks so much for your post!

Once you've been somewhere a great distance from home, you realize how
powerful and wonderful your airplane can be. We have flown to the Grand
Canyon, Albuquerque, Carlsbad, Flori-duh, Ohio, Michigan -- and all points
in between -- for the last ten years. (All VFR, by the way.) There is
just no greater feeling than flying 1200 miles in a day, and arriving,
feeling refreshed. Try THAT in your car.

More importantly, because of the close-knit aviation community, no matter
where you go, you're right "at home." It doesn't matter where you fly --
airports are friendly, cool places!

Good luck with your search -- and with convincing your husband!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"KayInPA" wrote in message
...

suggestion and fly different kinds of aircraft. First on the list is
the FBO's Piper Arrow.

If the FBO has a reasonably maintained Arrow for rent, why buy?
Retractables usually get much less use at most FBOs than trainers, and
certainly the FBO will realize that the potential customer to rent an Arrow
is someone to take the airplane on trips. The odds are very high you can
negotiate reasoanble terms for weekend or week-long trips in the airplane.

Jay, that's the lure indeed. Thanks so much for your post!

If you are going to buy the airplane as a partnership, then you will not
necessarily be able to use it "on a momen't notice" to go to Florida.
Besides, on a practical basis you need a good deal of flexibility in your
schedule to fly that kind of trip in a piston single even if you are an
experienced IFR pilot in an extremely well-equipped high performance single.

I really think you should just rent for a while and figure out what types of
trips truly fit into your schedule and lifestyle and thus what type of
airplane you really need. If you buy and airplane to meet your needs as a
private student or as an instrument student, the odds are high that your
needs will change and make the airplane a very expensive short-term asset.


--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

suggestion and fly different kinds of aircraft. First on the list is
the FBO's Piper Arrow.

If the FBO has a reasonably maintained Arrow for rent, why buy?
Retractables usually get much less use at most FBOs than trainers, and
certainly the FBO will realize that the potential customer to rent an
Arrow
is someone to take the airplane on trips. The odds are very high you can
negotiate reasoanble terms for weekend or week-long trips in the airplane.


Our local clubs have the opposite experience. The Arrow at one, and the 177
RG at the other are rented out over 60 hours a month unless they are in the
shop over yet another wheels up landing.


Jay, that's the lure indeed. Thanks so much for your post!

If you are going to buy the airplane as a partnership, then you will not
necessarily be able to use it "on a momen't notice" to go to Florida.
Besides, on a practical basis you need a good deal of flexibility in your
schedule to fly that kind of trip in a piston single even if you are an
experienced IFR pilot in an extremely well-equipped high performance
single.

I really think you should just rent for a while and figure out what types
of
trips truly fit into your schedule and lifestyle and thus what type of
airplane you really need. If you buy and airplane to meet your needs as a
private student or as an instrument student, the odds are high that your
needs will change and make the airplane a very expensive short-term asset.


See my disagreement with this above. In my mind, a pilot should get over a
hundred hours (more is better) before stepping up to anything more than a
180hp or less trainer. Most people take 2 years to fly that 100 hours.

Perhaps your advice is too general? Maybe its even best for the majority,
but in my mind, not the overwhelming majority.


--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com