Step-up Planning

"john smith" wrote in message
...
Thanks for posting Mike. I know people who make a business giving this
kind of advice. I hope others appreciate your contributions as much as I
do.

I'm glad somebody finds it useful. I can deduct my flying expenses so I
keep track of them in Quicken which makes accessing the data pretty easy.
There a lot of hugely expensive components that nobody seems to take into
account when they do their cost analysis. ACM, windshields, cabin windows
all last 4-7000hrs or about 20yrs. Since the cost to overhaul or replace is
$35,000, 50,000, $30,000 respecively, the cost per hour is $16-18/hr. This
in not much in the scheme of things...BUT...most of the used turboprops are
about 20yrs old with 4-7000hrs on them and haven't had this stuff replaced.
Therefore, there is a reasonable chance that you will need to replace all
these in the next 500hrs!. You bought the airplane for $500K but now you
are into it for $600K and it is only worth $450K (with 500 more hours on
it). People should understand that this senario is not unlikely.

Mike
MU-2

Fly Commercial. Let someone else make the decision so you stay alive.
The have to get there mentality leads to a grave.
Michelle

O. Sami Saydjari wrote:



Mike Rapoport wrote:

Considering the requirement of 250kts or better there are no piston
airplanes to consider. No turboprop will meet the $200/hr
requirement. I doubt that a pressurized piston twin will meet the
$200/hr requirment either You can get the range, speed, load hauling
and altitude if you spend more on operating cost or you can get the
stated operating and aqusition cost if you are willing to go
200kts.instead of 250.


Well, perhaps I can back-off on the operating costs a bit. Any idea
on how far i would have to back-off to make my speed goal?


Keep in mind that you are going to spend about $5000 a year on
training and over $10,000 (maybe $20K) on insurance. If you fly
100hrs a year (25,000 nm of travel, a lot), then insurance and
training will cost $150/hr.


Wow, interesting. I did not imagine insureance would be quite that much.


There is a point of rapidly dimishing returns on going faster. The
cost goes up geometrically and the time saved goes down less than
linearly because of taxi and approach speed restrictions.


Yes, but for long trips, like mine, it seems worth it. For a 1-2 hour
trip, I can definitely see your point, but for 4-5 hour trips, it
seems that the trip time savings is significant.

I would focus on more weather capability (two engines, radar, known
ice) and take whatever speed that comes with the package.


Yes. Good points. Known ice will be key for me. For business
travel, I need to be able to go when I need to go.


Mike
MU-2


"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message
...

I now own a PA28R201T, Piper Turbo Arrow III. It is a great plane
(although, as some of you know, I have had more than my share of
"challenges"). At altitude it cruises at 170 knots. Cost to
operate is around $90/hour (figuring maintenance and such). My
range requirement is 660nm with 45 minutes of fuel left offer. I
most often fly it single-pilot IFR. Lately, I have begun thinking
about the next step up, which I am planning for 2 years from
now...but one can't start too early to consider options. So, here
are my goals.

Range: 600nm with IFR reserve
Speed: 250 knots or better
Ceiling: 25,000 or better (Pressurized Cabin)
Passengers: 4 seater
Operating Cost: Would prefer round trip, 1320nm, cost less than $1000
Budget: $500K

Suggestions would be most welcome. I would like to narrow the
search down to 2 or 3 that comes as close as possible to my
requirements. Is a turbo-prop out of the question? Thanks in advance.

-Sami
N2057M, Piper Turbo Arrow III





--

Michelle P ATP-ASEL, CP-AMEL, and AMT-A&P

"Elisabeth" a Maule M-7-235B (no two are alike)

Volunteer Pilot, Angel Flight Mid-Atlantic

Volunteer Builder, Habitat for Humanity

Michelle, Agreed. I always have a commercial back-up ticket for every
flight I take. I have been quite conservative in my no-go decisions so
far. I am just looking to expand the percentage of "gos" that I can
make and looking to make my trips a bit shorter. -Sami

Michelle P wrote:

Fly Commercial. Let someone else make the decision so you stay alive.
The have to get there mentality leads to a grave.
Michelle

O. Sami Saydjari wrote:



Mike Rapoport wrote:

Considering the requirement of 250kts or better there are no piston
airplanes to consider. No turboprop will meet the $200/hr
requirement. I doubt that a pressurized piston twin will meet the
$200/hr requirment either You can get the range, speed, load hauling
and altitude if you spend more on operating cost or you can get the
stated operating and aqusition cost if you are willing to go
200kts.instead of 250.



Well, perhaps I can back-off on the operating costs a bit. Any idea
on how far i would have to back-off to make my speed goal?


Keep in mind that you are going to spend about $5000 a year on
training and over $10,000 (maybe $20K) on insurance. If you fly
100hrs a year (25,000 nm of travel, a lot), then insurance and
training will cost $150/hr.



Wow, interesting. I did not imagine insureance would be quite that much.


There is a point of rapidly dimishing returns on going faster. The
cost goes up geometrically and the time saved goes down less than
linearly because of taxi and approach speed restrictions.



Yes, but for long trips, like mine, it seems worth it. For a 1-2 hour
trip, I can definitely see your point, but for 4-5 hour trips, it
seems that the trip time savings is significant.

I would focus on more weather capability (two engines, radar, known
ice) and take whatever speed that comes with the package.



Yes. Good points. Known ice will be key for me. For business
travel, I need to be able to go when I need to go.


Mike
MU-2


"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message
...

I now own a PA28R201T, Piper Turbo Arrow III. It is a great plane
(although, as some of you know, I have had more than my share of
"challenges"). At altitude it cruises at 170 knots. Cost to
operate is around $90/hour (figuring maintenance and such). My
range requirement is 660nm with 45 minutes of fuel left offer. I
most often fly it single-pilot IFR. Lately, I have begun thinking
about the next step up, which I am planning for 2 years from
now...but one can't start too early to consider options. So, here
are my goals.

Range: 600nm with IFR reserve
Speed: 250 knots or better
Ceiling: 25,000 or better (Pressurized Cabin)
Passengers: 4 seater
Operating Cost: Would prefer round trip, 1320nm, cost less than $1000
Budget: $500K

Suggestions would be most welcome. I would like to narrow the
search down to 2 or 3 that comes as close as possible to my
requirements. Is a turbo-prop out of the question? Thanks in advance.

-Sami
N2057M, Piper Turbo Arrow III

On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:20:17 -0500, "O. Sami Saydjari"
wrote:

I now own a PA28R201T, Piper Turbo Arrow III. It is a great plane
(although, as some of you know, I have had more than my share of
"challenges"). At altitude it cruises at 170 knots. Cost to operate is
around $90/hour (figuring maintenance and such). My range requirement
is 660nm with 45 minutes of fuel left offer. I most often fly it
single-pilot IFR. Lately, I have begun thinking about the next step up,
which I am planning for 2 years from now...but one can't start too early
to consider options. So, here are my goals.

Range: 600nm with IFR reserve
Speed: 250 knots or better
Ceiling: 25,000 or better (Pressurized Cabin)
Passengers: 4 seater
Operating Cost: Would prefer round trip, 1320nm, cost less than $1000
Budget: $500K

Suggestions would be most welcome. I would like to narrow the search
down to 2 or 3 that comes as close as possible to my requirements. Is a
turbo-prop out of the question? Thanks in advance.

A tough mix. Only one piston single will meet your reqs, and it is
experimental, a Lancair IV-P.

Highspeed cruise: 290kts
Ceiling: 25000
Pressurized: Yes
Passengers: 4 seats
Available on aso.com for $500k
Range : 1000nm
Direct fuel operating costs ~25gph = $75/hr, so a 1320nm trip /250kts
= $400 in fuel. Plenty of margin ($600 for maintenance, oil, etc).

There is also a propjet version of the IV-P, which will do 330kts+.
Range goes down because of the fuelconsumption of the ~600shp turbine.

Other twin pistons to consider:
Piper Aerostar:
Baron 58P.

Most turbine twins could meet your requirements, but would be
difficult to find good ones in the $500k budget, and the $1000 round
trip will be tough.

The insurance costs on these planes will be astonishing. Be sure to
shop that around before doing anything. You will be looking at a
minimum of $10k/year, perhaps considerably higher.

Nathan, Yes, I looked at the specs on a Lancair IV-P. They sound too
good to be true. How can they be soo much better than the nearest
competitor in the class? Does anyone out there have direct experience
with one of these? What is the catch?

-sami

Nathan Young wrote:

On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:20:17 -0500, "O. Sami Saydjari"
wrote:


I now own a PA28R201T, Piper Turbo Arrow III. It is a great plane
(although, as some of you know, I have had more than my share of
"challenges"). At altitude it cruises at 170 knots. Cost to operate is
around $90/hour (figuring maintenance and such). My range requirement
is 660nm with 45 minutes of fuel left offer. I most often fly it
single-pilot IFR. Lately, I have begun thinking about the next step up,
which I am planning for 2 years from now...but one can't start too early
to consider options. So, here are my goals.

Range: 600nm with IFR reserve
Speed: 250 knots or better
Ceiling: 25,000 or better (Pressurized Cabin)
Passengers: 4 seater
Operating Cost: Would prefer round trip, 1320nm, cost less than $1000
Budget: $500K

Suggestions would be most welcome. I would like to narrow the search
down to 2 or 3 that comes as close as possible to my requirements. Is a
turbo-prop out of the question? Thanks in advance.


A tough mix. Only one piston single will meet your reqs, and it is
experimental, a Lancair IV-P.

Highspeed cruise: 290kts
Ceiling: 25000
Pressurized: Yes
Passengers: 4 seats
Available on aso.com for $500k
Range : 1000nm
Direct fuel operating costs ~25gph = $75/hr, so a 1320nm trip /250kts
= $400 in fuel. Plenty of margin ($600 for maintenance, oil, etc).

There is also a propjet version of the IV-P, which will do 330kts+.
Range goes down because of the fuelconsumption of the ~600shp turbine.

Other twin pistons to consider:
Piper Aerostar:
Baron 58P.

Most turbine twins could meet your requirements, but would be
difficult to find good ones in the $500k budget, and the $1000 round
trip will be tough.

The insurance costs on these planes will be astonishing. Be sure to
shop that around before doing anything. You will be looking at a
minimum of $10k/year, perhaps considerably higher.

"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message
...
Nathan, Yes, I looked at the specs on a Lancair IV-P. They sound too
good to be true. How can they be soo much better than the nearest
competitor in the class? Does anyone out there have direct experience
with one of these? What is the catch?

-sami

The catch? Several...

1) It is an experimental. That means the systems and airframe are not
necessarily up to certified standards.

2) You've gotta build it. Or buy one already complete (which brings up the
build quality issue).

3) It is a complex bird. Since you built it, presumably you can maintain
it. If you can't, does your A/I have the courage/discipline/whatever to
figure out a one of a kind airplane that doesn't have a maintenance manual?

4) The takeoff and landing speeds of the Lancair IV are higher than what is
allowed for certified aircraft. In an off-airport landing, higher speed
means much more risk.

These are the ones I can come up with off the top of my head at 6:50 AM.
I'm sure there are more.

By the way, I fly an experimental, so I'm not bashing experimentals, just
pointing out some of the issues you need to consider.

KB

Haven't crunched the numbers but I remember a turbocharged Lancair 400
possibly fitting the bill--but it's not pressurized. Might be worth a look
if you don't mind oxygen.

Marco Leon


"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message
...
I now own a PA28R201T, Piper Turbo Arrow III. It is a great plane
(although, as some of you know, I have had more than my share of
"challenges"). At altitude it cruises at 170 knots. Cost to operate is
around $90/hour (figuring maintenance and such). My range requirement
is 660nm with 45 minutes of fuel left offer. I most often fly it
single-pilot IFR. Lately, I have begun thinking about the next step up,
which I am planning for 2 years from now...but one can't start too early
to consider options. So, here are my goals.

Range: 600nm with IFR reserve
Speed: 250 knots or better
Ceiling: 25,000 or better (Pressurized Cabin)
Passengers: 4 seater
Operating Cost: Would prefer round trip, 1320nm, cost less than $1000
Budget: $500K

Suggestions would be most welcome. I would like to narrow the search
down to 2 or 3 that comes as close as possible to my requirements. Is a
turbo-prop out of the question? Thanks in advance.

-Sami
N2057M, Piper Turbo Arrow III

I dont mind oxygen that much....as long as I can make my ceiling
requirements (mostly to get above weather). I will take a look. -Sami

Marco Leon wrote:

Haven't crunched the numbers but I remember a turbocharged Lancair 400
possibly fitting the bill--but it's not pressurized. Might be worth a look
if you don't mind oxygen.

Marco Leon


"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message
...

I now own a PA28R201T, Piper Turbo Arrow III. It is a great plane
(although, as some of you know, I have had more than my share of
"challenges"). At altitude it cruises at 170 knots. Cost to operate is
around $90/hour (figuring maintenance and such). My range requirement
is 660nm with 45 minutes of fuel left offer. I most often fly it
single-pilot IFR. Lately, I have begun thinking about the next step up,
which I am planning for 2 years from now...but one can't start too early
to consider options. So, here are my goals.

Range: 600nm with IFR reserve
Speed: 250 knots or better
Ceiling: 25,000 or better (Pressurized Cabin)
Passengers: 4 seater
Operating Cost: Would prefer round trip, 1320nm, cost less than $1000
Budget: $500K

Suggestions would be most welcome. I would like to narrow the search
down to 2 or 3 that comes as close as possible to my requirements. Is a
turbo-prop out of the question? Thanks in advance.

-Sami
N2057M, Piper Turbo Arrow III

dream on. In my opinion you are looking for something that doesn't yet
exist. I think a personal jet could fill the bill too bad no one
has built one yet.... and for a pirce that actual individuals could
afford.

Aviation Consumer had an interesting article on the next generation of
turbo props that shows much promise of the price coming down to the
point where they could be the norm in the future. The reliability of
those engines seems really impressive. -Sami

kontiki wrote:

dream on. In my opinion you are looking for something that doesn't yet
exist. I think a personal jet could fill the bill too bad no one
has built one yet.... and for a pirce that actual individuals could
afford.