A letter I sent to the Wings Channel

Peter Duniho wrote:

I guess that's a matter of definition, isn't it? IMHO, the "stall" is the
point just *past* maximum lift, where the wing is producing very little lift
at all. Of course, the wing is always producing *some* lift, but for all
intents and purposes, I think it's reasonable to say to a primary student
that the wing is producing no lift when stalled.

At what point does the inaccuracy become unreasonable? If the wing were
producing no lift, the airplane would be falling. Not "losing
altitude", falling. That's not what happens. The stall, by definition,
starts where the coefficient of lift begins to decrease with increasing
angle of attack. It's simple; why not say it correctly and be done with
it?

I was simply offering my subjective opinion. Many enjoy the show, and
that's great. Some seem to find both instructor *and* student
annoying. That also is okay, but the student doesn't seem so bothersome
to me. I just think it's a little over the top to offer an instructive
show, on a network devoted to aircraft and flying, that perpetuates
common misconceptions and errors. They're in a perfect position to do
it right, yet for some reason don't.

Tim

"Tim Bengtson" wrote in message
...snip...

I don't watch the show regularly, but have channel-surfed into the
middle of two different episodes and heard what I consider glaring
errors both times. The first time, during stall practice, he pointed out
that the wing stops producing lift at the stall. This is absolutely
incorrect; lift is maximum at the stall.

According to my textbooks that's not true. Maximum lift is just before the
stall. Once in the stalled condition itself, at or beyond the separation
point of the flow of air over the airfoil, lift is lost and "the airplane
ceases to fly." (From The Ground Up, Aviation Publishers, Ottawa, page 35
and Flight Training Manual, Transport Canada, page 75) Of course not all
lift is gone - if you want to get picky about it, even a dropped brick has
SOME lift - but what does remain is insufficient to support the weight of
the airplane and as you said in another message, the airplane is indeed
falling rather than flying. Thus "at the stall" would be the point at which
the wing stops producing (adequate) lift, just as he said.

This weekend he was talking
about what to do during an engine failure in the pattern, and said that
the first thing you want to do is get on the radio and let someone know
you're in trouble. I don't know about you, but if I had an engine
failure in the pattern, I would be so busy flying the plane that I might
not talk on the radio again until I was on the ground.

I sure wouldn't start switching frequencies or grabbing for a hand mike
either but if my finger was next to the PTT switch on the yoke anyway I'd
holler that I had a problem.


As to on-camera silence, how about a voice-over? For my part, silence
would be better than listening to this guy blather on incessantly about
every piece of minutia that entered his mind. If I had an instructor
talk to me like that, I'd tell him to shut up.

Having never heard that minutia before I find it pretty interesting and that
it complements my ground school materials and CFI quite well. And since
that's the subject of the program it doesn't make a lot of sense to edit it
out.


Tim

I disagree. Have you ever tried to learn to fly with a camera in your
face and one in the back seat? I would not be able to stand it. She is
doing well under the circumstances.

Michelle

Yossarian wrote:

The student pilot on that show annoys the hell out of me. Instructor seems
pretty good though.

wrote in message
. ..



I do like their new injections of "Learning to Fly" though.

JBaker
PP-ASEL, San Diego









--

Michelle P CP-ASMEL-IA, and AMT-A&P

"Elisabeth" a Maule M-7-235B (no two are alike)

Volunteer Pilot, AirLifeLine

Volunteer Builder, Habitat for Humanity

Michelle

How do you think she would do with a gun sight pointing between her
eyes and a gun camera in the wing taking pictures of the kill?

Big John


On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 00:42:27 GMT, Michelle P
wrote:

I disagree. Have you ever tried to learn to fly with a camera in your
face and one in the back seat? I would not be able to stand it. She is
doing well under the circumstances.

Michelle

Yossarian wrote:

The student pilot on that show annoys the hell out of me. Instructor seems
pretty good though.

wrote in message
...



I do like their new injections of "Learning to Fly" though.

JBaker
PP-ASEL, San Diego

I'd like to see more on home building. Its amazing to me how home
builders fabricate parts where the kit falls short. They have one
where a guy (like me) is building an RV with someone who knows what
he's doing. They sometimes run another one where a strange Brit is
building a Chopper. Oh, BTW: American Chopper (motorcycles) kicks butt
too!




(AJ) wrote in message . com...
This is the text of a letter I sent to the Programming Department at
the Wings Channel. If you have a comment, please be sure to send a
copy to me in case I miss it on the news group. Thanks.

AJ Harris


The letter:

I appreciate what you are trying to do with the Wings Channel.
However, the programming is becoming repetitive and boring. There's
only so much one wants to hear about the Luftwaffe and Alexei Tupolev.

Personally, I would love to see more about the history of the Powder
Puff Derby, Florence "Pancho" Barnes, the use of Soviet women pilots
during their "Great Patriotic War," the Female pilots of the 46th
Taman' Guards Bomber Regiment, etc.

This should provide enough material for several shows. I hope that
you will consider this and allow the Wings channel to live up to its
promise.

Thank you.

Sincerely, AJ Harris


cc: rec.aviation.piloting
rec.aviation.military

"Steve House"
wrote:

According to my textbooks that's not true. Maximum lift is just before the
stall. Once in the stalled condition itself, at or beyond the separation
point of the flow of air over the airfoil, lift is lost and "the airplane
ceases to fly." (From The Ground Up, Aviation Publishers, Ottawa, page 35
and Flight Training Manual, Transport Canada, page 75)

You completely misunderstand stall and your misunderstanding
is perpetuated by the complained-about programming. Maximum
lift is just before stall and just after stall the lift is
just about equal to that maximum. Understanding that lift
is produced during stall is essential to a proper
understanding of spins and aerobatic flight.

Of course not all
lift is gone - if you want to get picky about it, even a dropped brick has
SOME lift -

The lift remaining just after stall is almost the same as
the lift just prior to stall, and is still supporting almost
all of the aircraft's weight.

but what does remain is insufficient to support the weight of
the airplane

The one difference is that as AOA increases, lift decreases,
and since the aircraft is designed to increase AOA when the
wings are not producing enough lift, after stall, the plane
automatically produces less and less lift if the pilot
allows the pla ne to "do its thing" and increase AOA
further.

It is actually possible in some fully aerobatic high-powered
aircraft to supplement the small amount of missing lift from
a stalled wing with engine thrust. The plane can then be
flown with the wings fully stalled. I saw it demonstrated
last year. Similarly, some spin modes have both wings fully
stalled, and the descent rate is constant. Thus, the wings
are fully supporting the weight of the aircraft with the
lift produced when stalled.

and as you said in another message, the airplane is indeed
falling rather than flying. Thus "at the stall" would be the point at which
the wing stops producing (adequate) lift, just as he said.

Saying it produces less lift after stall is correct. Saying
it stops producing lift is not correct and is highly
misleading.


Todd Pattist
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)
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Share what you learn.

Steve House wrote:

Well certainly textbooks can be in error. But where are the odds of
accuracy better, several independent pieces of instructional material vetted
through virtually every ground school and CFI in the country or a couple of
lone voices on the internet? What is your source
for the contrary view?

Steve, the problem is that all those textbooks were written by pilots.
Remember, the reason they became pilots in the first place is that they
couldn't do math well enough to become engineers :-) :-) Anyway, here
is a good reference that talks about flying a stalled wing:

http://www.av8n.com/how/htm/vdamp.html#sec-beyond-stall

If you get a chance, read the whole online book. It's not dumbed-down
like the typical pilot texts.

Tim

Todd Pattist wrote:

a lot of good stuff

Oh good; the cavalry. I was getting worried.

Tim

"Todd Pattist" wrote in message
...
....snip...
According to my textbooks that's not true. Maximum lift is just before
the
stall. Once in the stalled condition itself, at or beyond the separation
point of the flow of air over the airfoil, lift is lost and "the airplane
ceases to fly." (From The Ground Up, Aviation Publishers, Ottawa, page 35
and Flight Training Manual, Transport Canada, page 75)

You completely misunderstand stall and your misunderstanding
is perpetuated by the complained-about programming. Maximum
lift is just before stall and just after stall the lift is
just about equal to that maximum.

Not relating my understanding but giving close to a direct quote from the
two training manuals I've been told to use for my ground school and flight
training, plus my online ground school materials itself. The phrase "the
airplane ceases to fly" IS an exact quote, that's why the quotation marks.
Those training materials are consistent with the statements that you have
taken exception to that were presented in the TV program in question. You
may be correct and they wrong, but the burden is on you.

....snip...

and as you said in another message, the airplane is indeed
falling rather than flying. Thus "at the stall" would be the point at
which
the wing stops producing (adequate) lift, just as he said.

Saying it produces less lift after stall is correct. Saying
it stops producing lift is not correct and is highly
misleading.


So the whole debate is about whether the instructor in question should have
used the words "adequate lift" instead of just "lift." So how many angels
was it you said could dance on that pinhead?

Tim Bengtson wrote:
Oh good; the cavalry. I was getting worried.

Sorry we were late, there was trouble in the Indian Country.

(this has intentional double meaning - one aviation related,
one cavalry related)

If you've got a sound card, go he
http://www.rangerhorse.org/gowen.mid


Todd Pattist
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)
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Make a commitment to learn something from every flight.
Share what you learn.