T-34A

Larry

Been a long time since I flew the '34 so can't remember how the canopy
worked. Know it rolled back and forth in a track. Can't remember if
there was a means of jettisoning the canopy with one lever?? Possibly
Robert who flew bird in Navy can refresh how the canopy worked normal
and in emergency?

If canopy had to be rolled back in track, then after a wing departed
the bird probably pulled both negative and positive G's making it very
difficult to roll the canopy open to get out even if the harness was
very tight to keep one from being thrown around roughly?

Assuming they were not injured when wing broke off and canopy still
operated in track, due to gyrations I'd put the odds of getting out as
1 in 250-500.

Any one getting out of an accident like this would end up "poster boy
for miracles".

In layman's terms "They didn't have a chance".

Big John


On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 14:24:50 GMT, Larry Dighera
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 00:48:56 GMT, EDR wrote in
Message-Id: :

In article , Big John
wrote:

Ground witinesses say wing broke and came off (not mid air).

The big question will be: "Did it have the spar mod per the AD?"

That question seems to have been answered.

Another question that no one seems to be asking is, what prevented the
pilot and student from employing their parachutes as would be
expected?

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 00:48:56 GMT, EDR wrote in
Message-Id: :

In article , Big John
wrote:

Ground witinesses say wing broke and came off (not mid air).

The big question will be: "Did it have the spar mod per the AD?"

That question seems to have been answered.

Another question that no one seems to be asking is, what prevented the
pilot and student from employing their parachutes as would be
expected?



In the T-34 that had a wing failure near Atlanta, the wing failed upward,
folded over and struck the canopy. IF the pilots survived that, the canopy
was probably uselessly jammed anyway. I wouldn't be surprised if the same
thing happened in the recent crash.

KB

On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 13:55:22 GMT, "Kyle Boatright"
wrote in Message-Id:
:


"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 00:48:56 GMT, EDR wrote in
Message-Id: :

In article , Big John
wrote:

Ground witinesses say wing broke and came off (not mid air).

The big question will be: "Did it have the spar mod per the AD?"

That question seems to have been answered.

Another question that no one seems to be asking is, what prevented the
pilot and student from employing their parachutes as would be
expected?



In the T-34 that had a wing failure near Atlanta, the wing failed upward,
folded over and struck the canopy. IF the pilots survived that, the canopy
was probably uselessly jammed anyway. I wouldn't be surprised if the same
thing happened in the recent crash.

Thanks for the data point. If that occurred, it would explain a lot.

21:00 Tuesday night TV news

Don Wiley pilot.

Ohio man second individual (said identified but didn' t give name).

One wing found a mile from wreckage (image on screen looks like about
3/5 of wing including tip). Supports structural failure in air as said
other aircraft landed with no damage.

Other mish mash one hears on TV following an accident.

Big John


On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 16:12:20 -0600, Big John
wrote:

Texas Air Aces, T-34A out of Hooks Airport north of Houston, crashed
this morning (Tuesday). Both in aircraft deceased.

Flight (two A/C) had not started air combat maneuvers per media and
did not have a mid air????? if you can believe the media. Other A/C
retured to Hooks and landed safely.

Sone media talk on tonights news is that wing failed but nothing
official from TAA or FAA.

Other than deaths, aircraft type and organization have nothing else at
this time.

If/when more data is released, will post.

Big John

Bill Eisenhower was the name of the other pilot. He use to be a member of
the club that I am trustee for. Although I did not know the man personally,
many members have said that he was a good guy and a great pilot. He got
most of his ratings with our club. He was a commercial airline pilot.



"Big John" wrote in message
...
21:00 Tuesday night TV news

Don Wiley pilot.

Ohio man second individual (said identified but didn' t give name).

One wing found a mile from wreckage (image on screen looks like about
3/5 of wing including tip). Supports structural failure in air as said
other aircraft landed with no damage.

Other mish mash one hears on TV following an accident.

Big John


On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 16:12:20 -0600, Big John
wrote:

Texas Air Aces, T-34A out of Hooks Airport north of Houston, crashed
this morning (Tuesday). Both in aircraft deceased.

Flight (two A/C) had not started air combat maneuvers per media and
did not have a mid air????? if you can believe the media. Other A/C
retured to Hooks and landed safely.

Sone media talk on tonights news is that wing failed but nothing
official from TAA or FAA.

Other than deaths, aircraft type and organization have nothing else at
this time.

If/when more data is released, will post.

Big John

Kevin

Some more data.

Yesterday talk was that mission was "upset' training. I had my doubts
about that media report since was a flight of two ships. You don't
need two birds for upset training.

Today they are talking about simulated combat which takes two ships
and would track with what has been put out.

On front page there is a map of the area and the point of crash is
marked with a quote:

"One plane crashes after collision, killing two."

There is nothing in the 20 or so column inches on accident that talks
about a collision.

Data from morning Chronicle

Donald L Wyle 64 was the owner of Air Aces Inc
William Eisenhauer, Jr, 39, of Centerville, OH was second individual.
He had been a pilot for 15 years and worked for Airborne Express.

Retired corporate pilot on ground said, "Two planes were spiraling
around each other, like in mock combat

----clip----

"The whole wing came off," he said. "I just looked at it in
disbelief."

The wing that came off, fell about 1/2 mile from rest of wreckage.
..
It's a shame. Lots of people got to experience simulated combat type
flying that they never would have without this program.

My condolences to both families.

Big John


On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 15:04:48 -0500, "Kevin Chandler"
wrote:

Bill Eisenhower was the name of the other pilot. He use to be a member of
the club that I am trustee for. Although I did not know the man personally,
many members have said that he was a good guy and a great pilot. He got
most of his ratings with our club. He was a commercial airline pilot.



"Big John" wrote in message
.. .
21:00 Tuesday night TV news

Don Wiley pilot.

Ohio man second individual (said identified but didn' t give name).

One wing found a mile from wreckage (image on screen looks like about
3/5 of wing including tip). Supports structural failure in air as said
other aircraft landed with no damage.

Other mish mash one hears on TV following an accident.

Big John


On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 16:12:20 -0600, Big John
wrote:

Texas Air Aces, T-34A out of Hooks Airport north of Houston, crashed
this morning (Tuesday). Both in aircraft deceased.

Flight (two A/C) had not started air combat maneuvers per media and
did not have a mid air????? if you can believe the media. Other A/C
retured to Hooks and landed safely.

Sone media talk on tonights news is that wing failed but nothing
official from TAA or FAA.

Other than deaths, aircraft type and organization have nothing else at
this time.

If/when more data is released, will post.

Big John

---------------------- Forwarded Message: ---------------------
From: "T-34 Association, Inc."
To:
Subject: Texas T-34 Crash
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 17:36:04 -0600

Main stream news outlets in the Houston area, excerpted in previous
posting in this news group, could lead to a couple of misconceptions
regarding the circumstances of this accident.

1) we understand from informed and knowledgeable sources that the
accident was NOT the result of a mid air collision. Eyewitness
reports from a pilot on the ground and examination of both the
wreckage and the second T-34 give no credence to the theory that one
T-34 made contact with the other. These sources also indicate that
the wing separation appears to be very similar to the Sky Warriors
accident which was ultimately pinned on metal fatigue within the spar
assembly.

2) the airplane that crashed DID NOT have the "Baron spar"
modification. In fact, it appears that the airplane's spar had not
been inspected as required by the A.D. nor had any of the available
AMOCs been applied. This information was inaccurately stated in the
Aviation Safety Training company website.

As most readers will know, the A.D. (air worthiness directive)
significantly limited the hours and the flight envelope of every
T-34 aircraft until they had complied with the testing or
modification requirements of the A.D. These requirements were
designed to protect against another occurrence, such as this.

FAA and NTSB investigators will be trying to determine the cause of
the accident and whether or not the aircraft was being operated in
compliance with the A.D. If it was in compliance with either the
inspection /modification requirements (which does not appear to be
likely at this time), or the flight hour limitation and flight
envelope limitations, then the T-34 fleet can expect more action and
restrictions from the FAA.

We know that the results of the investigation will be of keen
interest to all T-34 owners and operators, so we will keep you
informed. In the mean time, we grieve for the loss of our fellow
T-34 Association member, and friend, Don Wylie, and his
passenger/student, William Eisenhauer Jr.

------------------------------------------------------



Big John wrote in message . ..
Kevin

Some more data.

Yesterday talk was that mission was "upset' training. I had my doubts
about that media report since was a flight of two ships. You don't
need two birds for upset training.

Today they are talking about simulated combat which takes two ships
and would track with what has been put out.

On front page there is a map of the area and the point of crash is
marked with a quote:

"One plane crashes after collision, killing two."

There is nothing in the 20 or so column inches on accident that talks
about a collision.

Data from morning Chronicle

Donald L Wyle 64 was the owner of Air Aces Inc
William Eisenhauer, Jr, 39, of Centerville, OH was second individual.
He had been a pilot for 15 years and worked for Airborne Express.

Retired corporate pilot on ground said, "Two planes were spiraling
around each other, like in mock combat

----clip----

"The whole wing came off," he said. "I just looked at it in
disbelief."

The wing that came off, fell about 1/2 mile from rest of wreckage.
.
It's a shame. Lots of people got to experience simulated combat type
flying that they never would have without this program.

My condolences to both families.

Big John


On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 15:04:48 -0500, "Kevin Chandler"
wrote:

Bill Eisenhower was the name of the other pilot. He use to be a member of
the club that I am trustee for. Although I did not know the man personally,
many members have said that he was a good guy and a great pilot. He got
most of his ratings with our club. He was a commercial airline pilot.



"Big John" wrote in message
.. .
21:00 Tuesday night TV news

Don Wiley pilot.

Ohio man second individual (said identified but didn' t give name).

One wing found a mile from wreckage (image on screen looks like about
3/5 of wing including tip). Supports structural failure in air as said
other aircraft landed with no damage.

Other mish mash one hears on TV following an accident.

Big John


On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 16:12:20 -0600, Big John
wrote:

Texas Air Aces, T-34A out of Hooks Airport north of Houston, crashed
this morning (Tuesday). Both in aircraft deceased.

Flight (two A/C) had not started air combat maneuvers per media and
did not have a mid air????? if you can believe the media. Other A/C
retured to Hooks and landed safely.

Sone media talk on tonights news is that wing failed but nothing
official from TAA or FAA.

Other than deaths, aircraft type and organization have nothing else at
this time.

If/when more data is released, will post.

Big John

Rich

Thanks for filling in the skeleton data I gleaned from the local.
paper (who I find so many times wrong).

Safe flyinjg

Big John


On 21 Nov 2003 07:58:52 -0800, (Rich Stowell)
wrote:

---------------------- Forwarded Message: ---------------------
From: "T-34 Association, Inc."
To:
Subject: Texas T-34 Crash
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 17:36:04 -0600

Main stream news outlets in the Houston area, excerpted in previous
posting in this news group, could lead to a couple of misconceptions
regarding the circumstances of this accident.

1) we understand from informed and knowledgeable sources that the
accident was NOT the result of a mid air collision. Eyewitness
reports from a pilot on the ground and examination of both the
wreckage and the second T-34 give no credence to the theory that one
T-34 made contact with the other. These sources also indicate that
the wing separation appears to be very similar to the Sky Warriors
accident which was ultimately pinned on metal fatigue within the spar
assembly.

2) the airplane that crashed DID NOT have the "Baron spar"
modification. In fact, it appears that the airplane's spar had not
been inspected as required by the A.D. nor had any of the available
AMOCs been applied. This information was inaccurately stated in the
Aviation Safety Training company website.

As most readers will know, the A.D. (air worthiness directive)
significantly limited the hours and the flight envelope of every
T-34 aircraft until they had complied with the testing or
modification requirements of the A.D. These requirements were
designed to protect against another occurrence, such as this.

FAA and NTSB investigators will be trying to determine the cause of
the accident and whether or not the aircraft was being operated in
compliance with the A.D. If it was in compliance with either the
inspection /modification requirements (which does not appear to be
likely at this time), or the flight hour limitation and flight
envelope limitations, then the T-34 fleet can expect more action and
restrictions from the FAA.

We know that the results of the investigation will be of keen
interest to all T-34 owners and operators, so we will keep you
informed. In the mean time, we grieve for the loss of our fellow
T-34 Association member, and friend, Don Wylie, and his
passenger/student, William Eisenhauer Jr.

------------------------------------------------------



Big John wrote in message . ..
Kevin

Some more data.

Yesterday talk was that mission was "upset' training. I had my doubts
about that media report since was a flight of two ships. You don't
need two birds for upset training.

Today they are talking about simulated combat which takes two ships
and would track with what has been put out.

On front page there is a map of the area and the point of crash is
marked with a quote:

"One plane crashes after collision, killing two."

There is nothing in the 20 or so column inches on accident that talks
about a collision.

Data from morning Chronicle

Donald L Wyle 64 was the owner of Air Aces Inc
William Eisenhauer, Jr, 39, of Centerville, OH was second individual.
He had been a pilot for 15 years and worked for Airborne Express.

Retired corporate pilot on ground said, "Two planes were spiraling
around each other, like in mock combat

----clip----

"The whole wing came off," he said. "I just looked at it in
disbelief."

The wing that came off, fell about 1/2 mile from rest of wreckage.
.
It's a shame. Lots of people got to experience simulated combat type
flying that they never would have without this program.

My condolences to both families.

Big John


On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 15:04:48 -0500, "Kevin Chandler"
wrote:

Bill Eisenhower was the name of the other pilot. He use to be a member of
the club that I am trustee for. Although I did not know the man personally,
many members have said that he was a good guy and a great pilot. He got
most of his ratings with our club. He was a commercial airline pilot.



"Big John" wrote in message
.. .
21:00 Tuesday night TV news

Don Wiley pilot.

Ohio man second individual (said identified but didn' t give name).

One wing found a mile from wreckage (image on screen looks like about
3/5 of wing including tip). Supports structural failure in air as said
other aircraft landed with no damage.

Other mish mash one hears on TV following an accident.

Big John


On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 16:12:20 -0600, Big John
wrote:

Texas Air Aces, T-34A out of Hooks Airport north of Houston, crashed
this morning (Tuesday). Both in aircraft deceased.

Flight (two A/C) had not started air combat maneuvers per media and
did not have a mid air????? if you can believe the media. Other A/C
retured to Hooks and landed safely.

Sone media talk on tonights news is that wing failed but nothing
official from TAA or FAA.

Other than deaths, aircraft type and organization have nothing else at
this time.

If/when more data is released, will post.

Big John

Thank you for some real data...

I know the Houston media (as is most mainstream media) is woefully
inadequate in accuracy.

I do find it troubling that the accident airplane may have been
non-compliant with the AD with regards to the wing spar.

Dave
KLVJ

Rich Stowell wrote:

---------------------- Forwarded Message: ---------------------
From: "T-34 Association, Inc."
To:
Subject: Texas T-34 Crash
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 17:36:04 -0600

Main stream news outlets in the Houston area, excerpted in previous
posting in this news group, could lead to a couple of misconceptions
regarding the circumstances of this accident.

1) we understand from informed and knowledgeable sources that the
accident was NOT the result of a mid air collision. Eyewitness
reports from a pilot on the ground and examination of both the
wreckage and the second T-34 give no credence to the theory that one
T-34 made contact with the other. These sources also indicate that
the wing separation appears to be very similar to the Sky Warriors
accident which was ultimately pinned on metal fatigue within the spar
assembly.

2) the airplane that crashed DID NOT have the "Baron spar"
modification. In fact, it appears that the airplane's spar had not
been inspected as required by the A.D. nor had any of the available
AMOCs been applied. This information was inaccurately stated in the
Aviation Safety Training company website.

As most readers will know, the A.D. (air worthiness directive)
significantly limited the hours and the flight envelope of every
T-34 aircraft until they had complied with the testing or
modification requirements of the A.D. These requirements were
designed to protect against another occurrence, such as this.

FAA and NTSB investigators will be trying to determine the cause of
the accident and whether or not the aircraft was being operated in
compliance with the A.D. If it was in compliance with either the
inspection /modification requirements (which does not appear to be
likely at this time), or the flight hour limitation and flight
envelope limitations, then the T-34 fleet can expect more action and
restrictions from the FAA.

We know that the results of the investigation will be of keen
interest to all T-34 owners and operators, so we will keep you
informed. In the mean time, we grieve for the loss of our fellow
T-34 Association member, and friend, Don Wylie, and his
passenger/student, William Eisenhauer Jr.

------------------------------------------------------



Big John wrote in message . ..

Kevin

Some more data.

Yesterday talk was that mission was "upset' training. I had my doubts
about that media report since was a flight of two ships. You don't
need two birds for upset training.

Today they are talking about simulated combat which takes two ships
and would track with what has been put out.

On front page there is a map of the area and the point of crash is
marked with a quote:

"One plane crashes after collision, killing two."

There is nothing in the 20 or so column inches on accident that talks
about a collision.

Data from morning Chronicle

Donald L Wyle 64 was the owner of Air Aces Inc
William Eisenhauer, Jr, 39, of Centerville, OH was second individual.
He had been a pilot for 15 years and worked for Airborne Express.

Retired corporate pilot on ground said, "Two planes were spiraling
around each other, like in mock combat

----clip----

"The whole wing came off," he said. "I just looked at it in
disbelief."

The wing that came off, fell about 1/2 mile from rest of wreckage.
.
It's a shame. Lots of people got to experience simulated combat type
flying that they never would have without this program.

My condolences to both families.

Big John


On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 15:04:48 -0500, "Kevin Chandler"
wrote:


Bill Eisenhower was the name of the other pilot. He use to be a member of
the club that I am trustee for. Although I did not know the man personally,
many members have said that he was a good guy and a great pilot. He got
most of his ratings with our club. He was a commercial airline pilot.



"Big John" wrote in message
...

21:00 Tuesday night TV news

Don Wiley pilot.

Ohio man second individual (said identified but didn' t give name).

One wing found a mile from wreckage (image on screen looks like about
3/5 of wing including tip). Supports structural failure in air as said
other aircraft landed with no damage.

Other mish mash one hears on TV following an accident.

Big John


On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 16:12:20 -0600, Big John
wrote:


Texas Air Aces, T-34A out of Hooks Airport north of Houston, crashed
this morning (Tuesday). Both in aircraft deceased.

Flight (two A/C) had not started air combat maneuvers per media and
did not have a mid air????? if you can believe the media. Other A/C
retured to Hooks and landed safely.

Sone media talk on tonights news is that wing failed but nothing
official from TAA or FAA.

Other than deaths, aircraft type and organization have nothing else at
this time.

If/when more data is released, will post.

Big John

-------------------------------------------------------------
AOPA ePilot Volume 5, Issue 47 November 21, 2003
-------------------------------------------------------------


SAFETY INSTRUCTOR, STUDENT DIE IN TEXAS CRASH
The owner of Texas-based Aviation Safety Training, 64-year-old Don
Wylie, died Wednesday with his student, William Eisenhauer of
Centerville, Ohio, after a wing separated from the 1965 Beech T-34 the
two men were flying. Wylie and Eisenhauer had just completed a lesson
in the school's upset recovery course and had rejoined with another
T-34 that had given the same instruction to another student. That
aircraft returned safely. A company official said there was no contact
between the two aircraft. The course introduces pilots to accelerated
flight conditions and recovery from those conditions. Another branch
of the company, located at David Wayne Hooks Memorial Airport north of
Houston, is Texas Air Aces, an air combat company that allows
participants to engage in simulated aerial combat using lasers to
determine when the other aircraft is hit. However, the aircraft were
not engaging in air combat maneuvers, a company official said. Wylie,
whose pilot customers included actor Harrison Ford, had given 8,500
hours of instruction since 1990 and flew 251 missions as a fighter
pilot in Vietnam. He earned the Silver Star, Distinguished Flying
Cross, and 16 Air Medals


On 21 Nov 2003 07:58:52 -0800, (Rich Stowell)
wrote in Message-Id:
:

---------------------- Forwarded Message: ---------------------
From: "T-34 Association, Inc."
To:
Subject: Texas T-34 Crash
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 17:36:04 -0600

Main stream news outlets in the Houston area, excerpted in previous
posting in this news group, could lead to a couple of misconceptions
regarding the circumstances of this accident.

1) we understand from informed and knowledgeable sources that the
accident was NOT the result of a mid air collision. Eyewitness
reports from a pilot on the ground and examination of both the
wreckage and the second T-34 give no credence to the theory that one
T-34 made contact with the other. These sources also indicate that
the wing separation appears to be very similar to the Sky Warriors
accident which was ultimately pinned on metal fatigue within the spar
assembly.

2) the airplane that crashed DID NOT have the "Baron spar"
modification. In fact, it appears that the airplane's spar had not
been inspected as required by the A.D. nor had any of the available
AMOCs been applied. This information was inaccurately stated in the
Aviation Safety Training company website.

As most readers will know, the A.D. (air worthiness directive)
significantly limited the hours and the flight envelope of every
T-34 aircraft until they had complied with the testing or
modification requirements of the A.D. These requirements were
designed to protect against another occurrence, such as this.

FAA and NTSB investigators will be trying to determine the cause of
the accident and whether or not the aircraft was being operated in
compliance with the A.D. If it was in compliance with either the
inspection /modification requirements (which does not appear to be
likely at this time), or the flight hour limitation and flight
envelope limitations, then the T-34 fleet can expect more action and
restrictions from the FAA.

We know that the results of the investigation will be of keen
interest to all T-34 owners and operators, so we will keep you
informed. In the mean time, we grieve for the loss of our fellow
T-34 Association member, and friend, Don Wylie, and his
passenger/student, William Eisenhauer Jr.

------------------------------------------------------



Big John wrote in message . ..
Kevin

Some more data.

Yesterday talk was that mission was "upset' training. I had my doubts
about that media report since was a flight of two ships. You don't
need two birds for upset training.

Today they are talking about simulated combat which takes two ships
and would track with what has been put out.

On front page there is a map of the area and the point of crash is
marked with a quote:

"One plane crashes after collision, killing two."

There is nothing in the 20 or so column inches on accident that talks
about a collision.

Data from morning Chronicle

Donald L Wyle 64 was the owner of Air Aces Inc
William Eisenhauer, Jr, 39, of Centerville, OH was second individual.
He had been a pilot for 15 years and worked for Airborne Express.

Retired corporate pilot on ground said, "Two planes were spiraling
around each other, like in mock combat

----clip----

"The whole wing came off," he said. "I just looked at it in
disbelief."

The wing that came off, fell about 1/2 mile from rest of wreckage.
.
It's a shame. Lots of people got to experience simulated combat type
flying that they never would have without this program.

My condolences to both families.

Big John


On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 15:04:48 -0500, "Kevin Chandler"
wrote:

Bill Eisenhower was the name of the other pilot. He use to be a member of
the club that I am trustee for. Although I did not know the man personally,
many members have said that he was a good guy and a great pilot. He got
most of his ratings with our club. He was a commercial airline pilot.



"Big John" wrote in message
.. .
21:00 Tuesday night TV news

Don Wiley pilot.

Ohio man second individual (said identified but didn' t give name).

One wing found a mile from wreckage (image on screen looks like about
3/5 of wing including tip). Supports structural failure in air as said
other aircraft landed with no damage.

Other mish mash one hears on TV following an accident.

Big John


On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 16:12:20 -0600, Big John
wrote:

Texas Air Aces, T-34A out of Hooks Airport north of Houston, crashed
this morning (Tuesday). Both in aircraft deceased.

Flight (two A/C) had not started air combat maneuvers per media and
did not have a mid air????? if you can believe the media. Other A/C
retured to Hooks and landed safely.

Sone media talk on tonights news is that wing failed but nothing
official from TAA or FAA.

Other than deaths, aircraft type and organization have nothing else at
this time.

If/when more data is released, will post.

Big John