Apparently Iced Up

Night with frost......no way. Safer to stay. You could wash it off with
prestone to clean the wing, but adding night into the equation is adding more
risk. If you did launch, be sure to think return options through the climb
out, that is if things weren't performing well, it would be time to return to
departure airport.
VL

I, fly / have flown, the Great Lakes ice machine my entire life... Ice and
frost are a way of life here and you learn to make good decisions or you
become an item in the newspaper...

Given your circumstances - night - innocent passengers - high altitude -
rising terrain - VISIBLE ice/frost on the wings check the far/aim on
this - you made exactly the right decision... And if you keep making the
same decision in the same circumstances you will be around to lecture the
next generation of pilots on the topic...

Forget the guys saying you coulda/shoulda have tried it cuz you coulda
returned to the airport if things weren't working out - that attitude is
likely to buy them a smoking hole in the ground...

General aviation averages 5 crashes a day, and a death almost every day...
(1820 crashes / 360 deaths - yr. 2002) and 98% of those crashes are
directly traceable to bad decisions - flying into bad wx - flying with a
known engine problem - running out of fuel - attempting takeoff with frost
on wings - etc...

Denny

"smackey" wrote in message

I think you did the right thing. I sure wouldn't attempt to guess "how much
is too much".


Here's my question: just
how much ice/frost is too much?

In article , smackey wrote:
convenient for me and my passengers to go. Here's my question: just
how much ice/frost is too much? Would the ice/frost probably have

Any frost is too much. Frost is especially bad - it spoils lift and
increases drag, so it counts against you twice.

The FARs specifically prohibit taking off with frost on any of the
lifting surfaces. The laws of physics often do, too.

smackey wrote:

Here's my question: just how much ice/frost is too much?

Any at all.

Would the ice/frost probably have sublimated on climb out?

What makes you think you would have left the ground?

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

smackey ) wrote:

Here's my question: just
how much ice/frost is too much? Would the ice/frost probably have
sublimated on climb out?

I am certainly no expert, but in the last year or so of my instrument
rating I have encountered two situations where I have landed at night in
very cold, but apparently moist air and watched the aircraft completely
frost over as I performed a preflight to depart.

In both cases, I concluded I only had two options: Stay the night or pay a
line crew to deice the aircraft for me. Fortunately, both times a line
crew was available with the proper deice equipment. Had they not been, I
would have used my credit card... to get a room.

Joking aside, I have learned that a credit card does work as a makeshift
deicer, assuming there is not much ice to remove. In another example, I
was taxiing at night this winter when I hit a pothole in a runway. The
wheel broke through the ice that covered a puddle and I heard the sound of
splashing water.

I parked the aircraft to pick up a passenger. During the preflight, I
discovered that the water had splashed up and covered my left horizontal
stabilizer and elevator (in a C172). Due to the cold air, the water
turned to ice. The airport's only FBO was closed.

There was no way I was going to take off at night with that ice, so I
yanked out an American Express card and began scraping. It took
approximately 15 minutes, but I was successful in completely removing the
ice.


--
Peter












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You made a good decision. Anything beyond the thickness of a piece of
tissue paper can disrupt airflow. The fact that frost formed rather
quickly says that the sublimation rate was much larger than the
formation rate at that time of night.
Paul

It probably would not have sublimated on climb out, sublimation takes a long
time. You might want to consider filling your garden sprayer with RV-type
antifreeze as a deicing solution in the winter.

Mike
MU-2


"smackey" wrote in message
m...
I'm looking for some advice whether I was too onservative he

I recenly flew a VFR flight from Billings, MT to Bozeman, MT. About
40 miles east of Bozeman I decided that I needed to delare IFR and
filed for an Ifr clearance into BZN in order to descend through a 2500
ft cloud layer. I got the clearance into BZN, and landed without
incident.

Later that evening I went to the plane (C172/180) to return to BIL
and found a very thin layer of ice (about 5 or 6 pages of paper thick)
on all the leading edges of my plane. It was dark, about 10pm, and I
elected to stay the night. The night was patchy clouds, but mostly
clear. I had to clear a 9000 foot ridge from a 4500 foot airport,
which the plane was easily capable of doing in normal circumstances.

The ice, and slight frost, on the airplane caused me stay. As I have
never really tried to fly with a slight layer of frost or ice, I
stayed; but I wonder if I was too cautious. It would have been very
convenient for me and my passengers to go. Here's my question: just
how much ice/frost is too much? Would the ice/frost probably have
sublimated on climb out?

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message thlink.net...
It probably would not have sublimated on climb out, sublimation takes a long
time. You might want to consider filling your garden sprayer with RV-type
antifreeze as a deicing solution in the winter.

Mike
MU-2

Thanks to all for the feedback. Question on the garden sprayer:
I usually have one filled with 90% solution of isopropyl alcohol
(didn't that nigt) from the drug store. Any reason this isn't a
feasible deicing solution to use if I were departing, say, in daytime?

Isopropyl alcohol can be a bit expensive, and evaporates quickly. Deicing
fluid like TKS is usually some combination of ethylene glycol and
isopropanol, which is a lot more viscous and sticks to the airframe better.
It also makes a tremendous mess on the hangar floor that never evaporates on
its own, and is very slippery.

A mix of warm water and cheap glycol based antifreeze in a garden sprayer
works pretty well as a substitute as mentioned. The pink or yellow-green dye
won't matter. Don't forget to do the wheels and landing gear, as well as
flap tracks, etc. In lieu of a plane with deice equipment it may give a few
minutes of ice protection, particularly if you taxi out in snow or slush.


"smackey" wrote in message
...
"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
thlink.net...
It probably would not have sublimated on climb out, sublimation takes a
long
time. You might want to consider filling your garden sprayer with
RV-type
antifreeze as a deicing solution in the winter.

Mike
MU-2

Thanks to all for the feedback. Question on the garden sprayer:
I usually have one filled with 90% solution of isopropyl alcohol
(didn't that nigt) from the drug store. Any reason this isn't a
feasible deicing solution to use if I were departing, say, in daytime?