WGC Uvalde: US Team... What Happened????

The US team suffers a significant disadvantage in that US Nationals rules
forbid team flying and have done so for many years; and the country is so
large that, unlike most European countries, it isn't practical for the team
to get together on weekends to practice team flying (not as good as
practicing in comps with real opposition anyway).

At 04:12 19 September 2012, Duster wrote:
I'm with Mr. Kemp in thinking the US pilots gave a very good
performance. I followed most all of them every contest day using the
SeeYou logs posted at days end (The use of Spot was basically useless
in this regard.). When you "force" the pilots to start at the same
"virtual" time, you can get a feel for the different strategies. The
overall winners flew more efficiently, maximised their energy, seemed
to wander less (shorter air travel per task distance) and, maybe too
obviously, were the most consistent.from one day to the next. Amazing
that that speeds in many cases were so close for the top 10-15
finishers. Of added interest were the sub-plots; e.g. Dick Butler
flying his new ship winning some great days; and John Seaborn missing
a start, only upon completing the task did he learn of his zero-point
day, then subsequently flew some of his best days to move up. Just to
mention a few positives.

Why haven't we had top finishers for many years? I have no clue.
Maybe it is the amount of training, ship performance, US v FAI rules.
Unless the relative paucity of youth participation in soaring is
remedied, not much else is going to matter in a few years.

On Sep 18, 12:26*pm, "Sean F (F2)" wrote:
First, the US Soaring Team is highly unlikely to be competitive (or likely within 2500 pts) at a World Championship until the SSA starts (and continue's for some time) competing under the same set of competition rules. *In this case, FAI. *The SSA apparently believe's that it's rules are better rules than FAI as alot of energy is spent on them. *With that, in my opinion, US pilots will never be properly trained or prepared for top level competition. *Far from it. *FAI and US rules differ significantly. *The only country in the world that uses different rules is the USA.

The SSA is fairly powerless to do anything about these recent World Championship performances. *They are happy sending a US Team and having fun. *Which is fine. *But clearly, the US as a country, is not competitive in the 15/18/Open classes. *Not even close to being close. *Even with a super-glider in Open.

It's not about the gliders, its about training and preparation as a team from the bottom up. *I have been through this on the US Sailing Team. *With that experience, in my view, the US Soaring Team is not really a team at all. *The only time the pilots were really together was at the Worlds for maybe a week prior. *Its completely individual based unlike the teams of the podium pilots. *It is not a team.

We need to develop younger pilots, earlier. *We need to develop a true team and leverage it. *We need the pilots flying together and committed. *We need to play the same game (FAI). *That is just not going to happen with the current group.

Our current US Soaring Team qualification system under our US rules, then sending pilots to fly a World Championship under FAI is a bit like qualifying for a poker tournament by playing checkers. *Add to that how little time is spent practicing together vs. the other teams.

The club class has shown great interest in being allowed (sanctioned) by the SSA and flying under FAI rules. The SSA committee's will not allow it. *They do not want to divide up the numbers of their flagship sports class.. *Oddly, the US Club Class team has been the most competitive US team lately.

I for one would like to fly FAI rules, at least for some contests. *I may be buying a club class glider and hosting a none SSA, club class, FAI rule contest next year in MI. *I hope others do the same. *Especially if your goal is to be competitive at a World Championship some day.

PS...Look at what Canada has accomplished. *Its about flying together all the time...even though they might not fly FAI. *What are your expectations for Canada at the next Worlds vs. the US? *I would say Canada has serious podium potential. *I would say the US will not improve.

I would love to see the US do better. *But I see little or nothing changing in the next two years OR NOW WHEN IT MATTERS.

F2







On Monday, September 17, 2012 2:11:31 PM UTC-4, wrote:
To everyone with an interest:

Given the sub-par, and I am being generous here, performance of the US Soaring Team at the recently completed WGC. Is anyone else wondering what in the world happened?

Maybe the lack of debate and substantive change around this topic is why we did so badly in the first place.

Clearly, US Team selection, training, and decision-making (among other things) did not work. And if our team can't work at here at "home", then how can we expect it to work when we send teams overseas.

We can't do much worse than we just did, so how can we change our competitive fortunes? Or does no one care?

Al Batross

The issue of using IGC rules comes up quite often, so perhaps one
(unofficial) rules committee voice should explain.

The IGC rules require far more assigned tasks than we typically use in
the US. The distance/speed points formula leads to much more gaggling
and leeching. For both reasons, the landout rate is much higher, as is
the chance of flying into rain, thunder, etc. The midair risk is also
much higher. (We had one effectively assigned task with big gaggles at
Mifflin this year, and I don't think anyone was anxious to repeat the
process)

These are the primary reasons we don't use IGC rules in the US -- or
at least the primary reason I don't advocate doing so. Yes, doing so
would better train the team. (From my one experience at worlds,
dealing with the very tactical start, leeching, gaggle strategies and
communication with team captains required under IGC rules are a far
bigger issue for US pilots than team flying. Maybe I just had a great
team mate.)

Alas, most of our nationals are on the edge of viability as it is.
Rules have to be run for the bottom 99%, not just to train the team.
If the only people who show up are team members, contests die.

Really, would you show up to a nationals if the game required hours of
start gate roulette, flying around every day in one big gaggle,
landing out (especially new pilots) several times in a contest,
requiring that you bring a crew (most of us don't these days) or buy a
glider with a motor? Would you come if we eschewed turn area and MAT
tasks, so you routinely were flying into doomed turnpoints in the rain
even though weather is great somewhere else? If the landout damage and
midairs were even more frequent?

The US rules committee has safety, and then participation as our first
two goals. Training the team comes later.

Still, the idea is worth exploring. We'll have poll questions up soon,
and a big one concerns radio usage. The main argument against radio
usage so far has been that it too would discourage participation, but
maybe that's wrong. With poll support, we can open up radio usage to
regionals this year and nationals in the future.

The US team camp contest idea has been around a long time, was a great
success last year and is worth pursuing. Such a contest can (by
waiver) use as much of the IGC rules as it likes. If lots of people
go, then we can demonstrate that our participation fears are
misplaced, and IGC rules can be used more broadly.

There's been lots of talk of staging a "continental" championships,
under IGC rules. It just takes a contest manager and site willing to
do it and a deep pocket willing to bankroll it. Go for it! There
really is no "they" who "oughtta" do these things. There is "us."

The RC is however pretty allergic to theoretical "build it and they
will come" arguments (see, PW5). One good thing about US rules (unlike
IGC!) is that we rely on experimentation at regionals to see if bright
ideas work in practice before making big changes at nationals. OTOH,
there is great flexibility for regionals and super regionals to try
anything vaguely sensible. So, if you want to see IGC rules, stage a
regional by IGC rules and demonstrate it can work and will attract
lots of pilots.

Disclaimer: personal opinion, not speaking for RC here.

John Cochrane

PS, The Canadians use a modified version of US rules and winscore.
(The main difference is the finish height, which I suspect they will
raise next year.) So, alas, we will just have to chalk up their
success to some pretty awesome piloting.

On Wednesday, September 19, 2012 8:39:56 AM UTC-6, John Cochrane wrote:
On Sep 18, 12:26*pm, "Sean F (F2)" wrote: First, the US Soaring Team is highly unlikely to be competitive (or likely within 2500 pts) at a World Championship until the SSA starts (and continue's for some time) competing under the same set of competition rules. *In this case, FAI. *The SSA apparently believe's that it's rules are better rules than FAI as alot of energy is spent on them. *With that, in my opinion, US pilots will never be properly trained or prepared for top level competition. *Far from it. *FAI and US rules differ significantly. *The only country in the world that uses different rules is the USA. The SSA is fairly powerless to do anything about these recent World Championship performances. *They are happy sending a US Team and having fun. *Which is fine.. *But clearly, the US as a country, is not competitive in the 15/18/Open classes. *Not even close to being close. *Even with a super-glider in Open. It's not about the gliders, its about training and preparation as a team from the bottom up. *I have been through this on the US Sailing Team. *With that experience, in my view, the US Soaring Team is not really a team at all. *The only time the pilots were really together was at the Worlds for maybe a week prior. *Its completely individual based unlike the teams of the podium pilots. *It is not a team. We need to develop younger pilots, earlier. *We need to develop a true team and leverage it. *We need the pilots flying together and committed. *We need to play the same game (FAI). *That is just not going to happen with the current group. Our current US Soaring Team qualification system under our US rules, then sending pilots to fly a World Championship under FAI is a bit like qualifying for a poker tournament by playing checkers. *Add to that how little time is spent practicing together vs. the other teams. The club class has shown great interest in being allowed (sanctioned) by the SSA and flying under FAI rules. The SSA committee's will not allow it. *They do not want to divide up the numbers of their flagship sports class. *Oddly, the US Club Class team has been the most competitive US team lately. I for one would like to fly FAI rules, at least for some contests. *I may be buying a club class glider and hosting a none SSA, club class, FAI rule contest next year in MI. *I hope others do the same. *Especially if your goal is to be competitive at a World Championship some day. PS...Look at what Canada has accomplished. *Its about flying together all the time....even though they might not fly FAI. *What are your expectations for Canada at the next Worlds vs. the US? *I would say Canada has serious podium potential. *I would say the US will not improve. I would love to see the US do better. *But I see little or nothing changing in the next two years OR NOW WHEN IT MATTERS. F2 On Monday, September 17, 2012 2:11:31 PM UTC-4, wrote: To everyone with an interest: Given the sub-par, and I am being generous here, performance of the US Soaring Team at the recently completed WGC. Is anyone else wondering what in the world happened? Maybe the lack of debate and substantive change around this topic is why we did so badly in the first place. Clearly, US Team selection, training, and decision-making (among other things) did not work. And if our team can't work at here at "home", then how can we expect it to work when we send teams overseas. We can't do much worse than we just did, so how can we change our competitive fortunes? Or does no one care? Al Batross The issue of using IGC rules comes up quite often, so perhaps one (unofficial) rules committee voice should explain. The IGC rules require far more assigned tasks than we typically use in the US. The distance/speed points formula leads to much more gaggling and leeching. For both reasons, the landout rate is much higher, as is the chance of flying into rain, thunder, etc. The midair risk is also much higher. (We had one effectively assigned task with big gaggles at Mifflin this year, and I don't think anyone was anxious to repeat the process) These are the primary reasons we don't use IGC rules in the US -- or at least the primary reason I don't advocate doing so. Yes, doing so would better train the team. (From my one experience at worlds, dealing with the very tactical start, leeching, gaggle strategies and communication with team captains required under IGC rules are a far bigger issue for US pilots than team flying. Maybe I just had a great team mate.) Alas, most of our nationals are on the edge of viability as it is. Rules have to be run for the bottom 99%, not just to train the team. If the only people who show up are team members, contests die. Really, would you show up to a nationals if the game required hours of start gate roulette, flying around every day in one big gaggle, landing out (especially new pilots) several times in a contest, requiring that you bring a crew (most of us don't these days) or buy a glider with a motor? Would you come if we eschewed turn area and MAT tasks, so you routinely were flying into doomed turnpoints in the rain even though weather is great somewhere else? If the landout damage and midairs were even more frequent? The US rules committee has safety, and then participation as our first two goals. Training the team comes later. Still, the idea is worth exploring. We'll have poll questions up soon, and a big one concerns radio usage. The main argument against radio usage so far has been that it too would discourage participation, but maybe that's wrong. With poll support, we can open up radio usage to regionals this year and nationals in the future. The US team camp contest idea has been around a long time, was a great success last year and is worth pursuing. Such a contest can (by waiver) use as much of the IGC rules as it likes. If lots of people go, then we can demonstrate that our participation fears are misplaced, and IGC rules can be used more broadly.. There's been lots of talk of staging a "continental" championships, under IGC rules. It just takes a contest manager and site willing to do it and a deep pocket willing to bankroll it. Go for it! There really is no "they" who "oughtta" do these things. There is "us." The RC is however pretty allergic to theoretical "build it and they will come" arguments (see, PW5). One good thing about US rules (unlike IGC!) is that we rely on experimentation at regionals to see if bright ideas work in practice before making big changes at nationals. OTOH, there is great flexibility for regionals and super regionals to try anything vaguely sensible. So, if you want to see IGC rules, stage a regional by IGC rules and demonstrate it can work and will attract lots of pilots. Disclaimer: personal opinion, not speaking for RC here. John Cochrane PS, The Canadians use a modified version of US rules and winscore. (The main difference is the finish height, which I suspect they will raise next year.) So, alas, we will just have to chalk up their success to some pretty awesome piloting.

H



On Wednesday, September 19, 2012 8:39:56 AM UTC-6, John Cochrane wrote:
On Sep 18, 12:26*pm, "Sean F (F2)" wrote: First, the US Soaring Team is highly unlikely to be competitive (or likely within 2500 pts) at a World Championship until the SSA starts (and continue's for some time) competing under the same set of competition rules. *In this case, FAI. *The SSA apparently believe's that it's rules are better rules than FAI as alot of energy is spent on them. *With that, in my opinion, US pilots will never be properly trained or prepared for top level competition. *Far from it. *FAI and US rules differ significantly. *The only country in the world that uses different rules is the USA. The SSA is fairly powerless to do anything about these recent World Championship performances. *They are happy sending a US Team and having fun. *Which is fine.. *But clearly, the US as a country, is not competitive in the 15/18/Open classes. *Not even close to being close. *Even with a super-glider in Open. It's not about the gliders, its about training and preparation as a team from the bottom up. *I have been through this on the US Sailing Team. *With that experience, in my view, the US Soaring Team is not really a team at all. *The only time the pilots were really together was at the Worlds for maybe a week prior. *Its completely individual based unlike the teams of the podium pilots. *It is not a team. We need to develop younger pilots, earlier. *We need to develop a true team and leverage it. *We need the pilots flying together and committed. *We need to play the same game (FAI). *That is just not going to happen with the current group. Our current US Soaring Team qualification system under our US rules, then sending pilots to fly a World Championship under FAI is a bit like qualifying for a poker tournament by playing checkers. *Add to that how little time is spent practicing together vs. the other teams. The club class has shown great interest in being allowed (sanctioned) by the SSA and flying under FAI rules. The SSA committee's will not allow it. *They do not want to divide up the numbers of their flagship sports class. *Oddly, the US Club Class team has been the most competitive US team lately. I for one would like to fly FAI rules, at least for some contests. *I may be buying a club class glider and hosting a none SSA, club class, FAI rule contest next year in MI. *I hope others do the same. *Especially if your goal is to be competitive at a World Championship some day. PS...Look at what Canada has accomplished. *Its about flying together all the time....even though they might not fly FAI. *What are your expectations for Canada at the next Worlds vs. the US? *I would say Canada has serious podium potential. *I would say the US will not improve. I would love to see the US do better. *But I see little or nothing changing in the next two years OR NOW WHEN IT MATTERS. F2 On Monday, September 17, 2012 2:11:31 PM UTC-4, wrote: To everyone with an interest: Given the sub-par, and I am being generous here, performance of the US Soaring Team at the recently completed WGC. Is anyone else wondering what in the world happened? Maybe the lack of debate and substantive change around this topic is why we did so badly in the first place. Clearly, US Team selection, training, and decision-making (among other things) did not work. And if our team can't work at here at "home", then how can we expect it to work when we send teams overseas. We can't do much worse than we just did, so how can we change our competitive fortunes? Or does no one care? Al Batross The issue of using IGC rules comes up quite often, so perhaps one (unofficial) rules committee voice should explain. The IGC rules require far more assigned tasks than we typically use in the US. The distance/speed points formula leads to much more gaggling and leeching. For both reasons, the landout rate is much higher, as is the chance of flying into rain, thunder, etc. The midair risk is also much higher. (We had one effectively assigned task with big gaggles at Mifflin this year, and I don't think anyone was anxious to repeat the process) These are the primary reasons we don't use IGC rules in the US -- or at least the primary reason I don't advocate doing so. Yes, doing so would better train the team. (From my one experience at worlds, dealing with the very tactical start, leeching, gaggle strategies and communication with team captains required under IGC rules are a far bigger issue for US pilots than team flying. Maybe I just had a great team mate.) Alas, most of our nationals are on the edge of viability as it is. Rules have to be run for the bottom 99%, not just to train the team. If the only people who show up are team members, contests die. Really, would you show up to a nationals if the game required hours of start gate roulette, flying around every day in one big gaggle, landing out (especially new pilots) several times in a contest, requiring that you bring a crew (most of us don't these days) or buy a glider with a motor? Would you come if we eschewed turn area and MAT tasks, so you routinely were flying into doomed turnpoints in the rain even though weather is great somewhere else? If the landout damage and midairs were even more frequent? The US rules committee has safety, and then participation as our first two goals. Training the team comes later. Still, the idea is worth exploring. We'll have poll questions up soon, and a big one concerns radio usage. The main argument against radio usage so far has been that it too would discourage participation, but maybe that's wrong. With poll support, we can open up radio usage to regionals this year and nationals in the future. The US team camp contest idea has been around a long time, was a great success last year and is worth pursuing. Such a contest can (by waiver) use as much of the IGC rules as it likes. If lots of people go, then we can demonstrate that our participation fears are misplaced, and IGC rules can be used more broadly.. There's been lots of talk of staging a "continental" championships, under IGC rules. It just takes a contest manager and site willing to do it and a deep pocket willing to bankroll it. Go for it! There really is no "they" who "oughtta" do these things. There is "us." The RC is however pretty allergic to theoretical "build it and they will come" arguments (see, PW5). One good thing about US rules (unlike IGC!) is that we rely on experimentation at regionals to see if bright ideas work in practice before making big changes at nationals. OTOH, there is great flexibility for regionals and super regionals to try anything vaguely sensible. So, if you want to see IGC rules, stage a regional by IGC rules and demonstrate it can work and will attract lots of pilots. Disclaimer: personal opinion, not speaking for RC here. John Cochrane PS, The Canadians use a modified version of US rules and winscore. (The main difference is the finish height, which I suspect they will raise next year.) So, alas, we will just have to chalk up their success to some pretty awesome piloting.

Here's some more fodder for the discussion. I set up a blog to post some of my flight experiences and some post flight analyses as a rookie at the Uvalde WGC. I only have the first 6 days up so far. I plan to put up the second half soon.

http://leonardzl.dyndns.org/uvalde

Dave Leonard

Here's some more fodder for the discussion. I set up a blog to post
some of my flight experiences and some post flight analyses as a
rookie at the Uvalde WGC. I only have the first 6 days up so far. I
plan to put up the second half soon.

http://leonardzl.dyndns.org/uvalde

Dave Leonard

Dave: These are fantastic! Just the sort of in-depth analysis all of
us wannabees are looking for from Uvalde. Thanks for posting them! I
look forward to seeing the remaining days.
John Cochrane

The US team has talented pilots no different than other countries. Our 2012 Worlds team consists great people and great pilots. But their (our) potential is not even close to fully realized for World competition because we play checkers (US rules) and the rest of the world plays poker (FAI).

I have had some more thoughts when thinking about why we in the US are so isolated and, at the same time and unsurprisingly, so far behind the rest of the world in World Level Competition. I don't see any major safety statistical differences that justify the US rules as safer. So let's take safety off the board for a moment and discuss objective changes that glare out.

1) Do to our SSA insistence for a totally different set of US competition rules, we isolate US contest pilots from having any opportunity to race with outsiders in the US. We have therefore become a very closed group. Instead of attracting other top pilots to come fly in the US (many amazing soaring sites), we do the opposite and actually repel foreign pilots. Flying in the US for top level foreign pilots is a waste of time. Why, different rules but that is not all.

In addition, foreign pilots are only allowed to fly in major US contests as guests. Look at 2012 15 meter nationals for example. Kinda weird really. Duck-hawk, duck-hawk...blah blah blah. Great glider but the guy who actually won this event was almost ignored. That's bugs me. I'm sure it bothered some others. In general is this the way to welcome foreign pilots? Don't we won't more pilots, foreign and domestic?

In my opinion, if we worked to better welcome foreign pilots to US events and scored everyone attending major US contest equally, we might just begin to attract some more top pilots to practice with. To learn from. We should simply pick the top American (2nd in this case) as the US champion, but honor all the pilots. No big deal, no problem. We can then gauge ourselves more often, etc. We should really be bending over backwards to have the opportunity to fly against top international pilots. Instead we close it off (treat them as alien contestants). This makes no sense to me.

2) The US pilots only race area tasks (almost exclusively) with massive circles (20, 30 miles). Foreign racing pilots, countries, fly, primarily, assigned tasks under FAI. Assigned tasks are the main task at 15/18/Open world championships and FAI. In my opinion (and that opinion is shared by most if not all of the international pilots I know now) large circles are major obstacles to becoming competitive in international competition. No need for any strategy in large radius area tasks. It's more like flying for OLC points then racing. Just follow clouds and if you are lucky enough, you win. Foreign pilots simply don't like our tasking. Especially the top ones.. It stunts our talented pilots growth. It repels other international talent. It's boring.

I know a number of foreign pilots now who, if the US ran the same rules and tasking, would have come to the US to train early this summer. But, they didn't because it was of little value to them (checkers).

If I recall correctly, no US nationals had a single assigned task this year (2012). For certain, the vast majority of US tasks were large area task.. With that (checkers vs. poker) how can a US pilot (15/18/Open) possibly expect success in the European game? You know, that other sport...FAI? Those rules they use internationally and at Worlds? Area tasks with huge circles 20-30 miles again is no different than OLC. Hell, cylinders of that size would*cover 1/5th of some European countries!

If we don't fly task similar to what our Worlds pilots will fly at the World Championship, team flying practice will not help them. In addition, US team selection is strongly influenced by large area task results. Then, after qualification and training under US rules, they are asked to suddenly metamorphosis into FAI champions for a few weeks during the World Championship? Then they don't do well, at all, even at their home venue of Uvalde we are shocked? They had no chance. It was actually their first time (most of them) experiencing an entirely different sport. FAI soaring rules racing! I wish it was possible to have it all. Noir own "safer rules" and world champions. But the fact is that this sport is really hard and the big boys are really, really good! They, along with the rest of the world, fly FAI. It is nearly impossible for our pilots overcome the disadvantage they endure via disregarding FAI entirely in favor of our own, special SSA rules.

It all revolves around our philosophy on rules here in the USA. They may be great for "some"...but we are never going to be competitive at a World championship unless a pilot is extraordinary and lucky squared. I contend that we should never have expect to be competitive in Uvalde. Good results were upside at best.

Everything we do here in the USA is wrong if World Championships (or even being remotely competitive) is our goal. Period. And as some have mentioned, it SIMPLY IS NOT AN SSA GOAL.

I contend we scrap our SSA rules and adopt FAI next year. At some level. Give pilots the choice. We can save the vast time spent on recreating the sport for ourselves via our special rules committee and focus on more important items. Again, safety is not measurably different in the US and Europe.. Why do we have an entirely different set of rules again?

On Tue, 18 Sep 2012 10:48:02 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Monday, September 17, 2012 11:11:31 AM UTC-7, wrote:
To everyone with an interest: Given the sub-par, and I am being generous here, performance of the US Soaring Team at the recently completed WGC. Is anyone else wondering what in the world happened? Maybe the lack of debate and substantive change around this topic is why we did so badly in the first place. Clearly, US Team selection, training, and decision-making (among other things) did not work. And if our team can't work at here at "home", then how can we expect it to work when we send teams overseas. We can't do much worse than we just did, so how can we change our competitive fortunes? Or does no one care? Al Batross

There are plenty of excellent sailplane pilots but very few who can pay out the 100,000 it takes to buy a sailplane that will compete in competion flying. It is a rich mans game, the rest of fly the best we can in the sailplanes we can afford and can only wonder if given the chance what we could do.

Yeah, that's the problem is you live in a 3rd world country like the
US or, say, Somalia.

There is absolutely no chance to compete with those highly
industrialized, extremely rich countries like, say, South Africa or
Poland whose population has so much money to spare that their
ten-thousands of glider pilots can easily afford the latest racing
machines from Poppenhausen or Kirchheim/Teck. People, who know gliders
with an L/D of less than 40 only from history books.


Cheers
Andreas

Come on Sean,
You completely miss many of the great points that John made about how important it is to keep contests fun. They are not all about selection for the world's!!! You didn't acknowledge his arguments about how the US rules help to make contests more appealing to barely enough contestants to have contests at all. Were any of these ideas valid?

I also agree that if USA contests started becoming consistent land-out fests that you would see participation drop. Fine, so we aren't grooming winners for the world's but we are at least still racing. You are arguing for changing the way we try to swim here and in reality we are just trying to stay afloat!

In my mind the biggest difference is that due to the USA being so large, it takes these kinds of rules changes to attract enough glider pilots to attend any particular contest. How many of the Europeans drive 1000,2000, even 3000km to attend a contest? You see that all the time here in the USA. Again, were any of John's points valid?

Thanks Dave for working on the flight analysis. Can't wait to start reviewing!

Bruno - B4

On Sep 19, 8:28*pm, wrote:
Come on Sean,
You completely miss many of the great points that John made about how important it is to keep contests fun. *They are not all about selection for the world's!!! *You didn't acknowledge his arguments about how the US rules help to make contests more appealing to barely enough contestants to have contests at all. *Were any of these ideas valid?

I also agree that if USA contests started becoming consistent land-out fests that you would see participation drop. *Fine, so we aren't grooming winners for the world's but we are at least still racing. *You are arguing for changing the way we try to swim here and in reality we are just trying to stay afloat!

In my mind the biggest difference is that due to the USA being so large, it takes these kinds of rules changes to attract enough glider pilots to attend any particular contest. *How many of the Europeans drive 1000,2000, even 3000km to attend a contest? You see that all the time here in the USA. *Again, were any of John's points valid?

Thanks Dave for working on the flight analysis. *Can't wait to start reviewing!

Bruno - B4

Right on Sean!

On Sep 19, 3:45*pm, "Sean F (F2)" wrote:
The US team has talented pilots no different than other countries. *Our 2012 Worlds team consists great people and great pilots. *But their (our) potential is not even close to fully realized for World competition because we play checkers (US rules) and the rest of the world plays poker (FAI).

I have had some more thoughts when thinking about why we in the US are so isolated and, at the same time and unsurprisingly, so far behind the rest of the world in World Level Competition. *I don't see any major safety statistical differences that justify the US rules as safer. *So let's take safety off the board for a moment and discuss objective changes that glare out.

1) *Do to our SSA insistence for a totally different set of US competition rules, we isolate US contest pilots from having any opportunity to race with outsiders in the US. *We have therefore become a very closed group. *Instead of attracting other top pilots to come fly in the US (many amazing soaring sites), we do the opposite and actually repel foreign pilots. *Flying in the US for top level foreign pilots is a waste of time. *Why, different rules but that is not all.

In addition, foreign pilots are only allowed to fly in major US contests as guests. *Look at 2012 15 meter nationals for example. *Kinda weird really. *Duck-hawk, duck-hawk...blah blah blah. *Great glider but the guy who actually won this event was almost ignored. *That's bugs me. *I'm sure it bothered some others. *In general is this the way to welcome foreign pilots? *Don't we won't more pilots, foreign and domestic?

In my opinion, if we worked to better welcome foreign pilots to US events and scored everyone attending major US contest equally, we might just begin to attract some more top pilots to practice with. * To learn from. *We should simply pick the top American (2nd in this case) as the US champion, but honor all the pilots. *No big deal, no problem. *We can then gauge ourselves more often, etc. *We should really be bending over backwards to have the opportunity to fly against top international pilots. *Instead we close it off (treat them as alien contestants). *This makes no sense to me.

2) The US pilots only race area tasks (almost exclusively) with massive circles (20, 30 miles). *Foreign racing pilots, countries, fly, primarily, assigned tasks under FAI. * Assigned tasks are the main task at 15/18/Open world championships and FAI. *In my opinion (and that opinion is shared by most if not all of the international pilots I know now) large circles are major obstacles to becoming competitive in international competition. *No need for any strategy in large radius area tasks. *It's more like flying for OLC points then racing. *Just follow clouds and if you are lucky enough, you win. *Foreign pilots simply don't like our tasking. *Especially the top ones. *It stunts our talented pilots growth. *It repels other international talent. *It's boring.

I know a number of foreign pilots now who, if the US ran the same rules and tasking, would have come to the US to train early this summer. *But, they didn't because it was of little value to them (checkers).

If I recall correctly, no US nationals had a single assigned task this year (2012). *For certain, the vast majority of US tasks were large area task.. *With that (checkers vs. poker) how can a US pilot (15/18/Open) possibly expect success in the European game? *You know, that other sport...FAI? *Those rules they use internationally and at Worlds? *Area tasks with huge circles 20-30 miles again is no different than OLC. *Hell, cylinders of that size would*cover 1/5th of some European countries!

If we don't fly task similar to what our Worlds pilots will fly at the World Championship, team flying practice will not help them. *In addition, US team selection is strongly influenced by large area task results. *Then, after qualification and training under US rules, they are asked to suddenly metamorphosis into FAI champions for a few weeks during the World Championship? *Then they don't do well, at all, even at their home venue of Uvalde we are shocked? *They had no chance. *It was actually their first time (most of them) experiencing an entirely different sport. *FAI soaring rules racing! I wish it was possible to have it all. Noir own "safer rules" and world champions. *But the fact is that this sport is really hard and the big boys are really, really good! *They, along with the rest of the world, fly FAI. *It is nearly impossible for our pilots overcome the disadvantage they endure via disregarding FAI entirely in favor of our own, special SSA rules.

It all revolves around our philosophy on rules here in the USA. *They may be great for "some"...but we are never going to be competitive at a World championship unless a pilot is extraordinary and lucky squared. *I contend that we should never have expect to be competitive in Uvalde. *Good results were upside at best.

Everything we do here in the USA is wrong if World Championships (or even being remotely competitive) is our goal. *Period. *And as some have mentioned, it SIMPLY IS NOT AN SSA GOAL.

I contend we scrap our SSA rules and adopt FAI next year. *At some level. *Give pilots the choice. *We can save the vast time spent on recreating the sport for ourselves via our special rules committee and focus on more important items. *Again, safety is not measurably different in the US and Europe. *Why do we have an entirely different set of rules again?



Save the current SSA rules for Sports Class where they belong. Fly
with the rest of the world in the FAI classes, even if you have to
handicap them to attract participation. Everyone gets a choice and a
chance that way.

As I remember it, the Area Task was developed to cope with marginal weather conditions that would not allow a safe assigned task to be called. If it was used that way - on special occasions, with usually only one area instead of a series of big areas - it would be a useful addition to the CD's bag of tricks. But recently it has become the task of choice because it is so easy to call, and takes the pressure off the CD.

On days with a good, uniform forecast, there is only one reason for an area task: you are calling a task for mixed classes and want to give all a chance to complete in the time assigned. Again, that should be done with as few areas as possible.

Just calling a blanket task with 3 30-mile areas is a total cop out by the CD.

I agree with Mike - Sports class is the place for our "friendly" rules. FAI classes should use FAI rules.

Kirk
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