Tight patterns?

"Wdtabor" wrote:
The point being that we fly a standard pattern for a reason,

What's a "standard pattern?"
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)

I don't think he ever got to 800 feet, and probably turned crosswing before he
was even to the end of the runway, and flew such a tight pattern that he
overtook and passed me. Add a low wing over a high wing, a NORDO aircraft
flying a non-standard pattern, and you've got a midair waiting to happen.

Don, you have to understand that what may be a "normal" or "standard"
pattern for metal spam cans is too high for a light, rag and tube
taildragger. The lighter weight and lower descent speeds would reek
havoc with your spam can descents and airspeeds in your "normal"
pattern.

In my 7AC, I can fly inside you and below and either land and be clear
before you turn final or, I can do a 360 between downwind and final and
land behind you if you are on final. There is no comparison between the
performance of aircraft.

My approach speed is 55 MILES per hour. How far behind me are you going
to have to fly and how big a pattern are you going to fly to stay
behind me?

At my landing speed, 45 MILES per hour, I may only roll 100-200 feet.
If I land at the approach threshold, that means I have to taxi on the
runway to get to the taxiway, which may be 1000 or 1500 feet down the
runway. My taxi speed is 25 - 30 MILES per hour.

If I fly your "normal" pattern, you are in a world of hurt. Plus, if
your engine burps, you are going to make an off airport landing. By
flying inside and below you, the taildragger pilot allows you to be
where you want to be.

Additionally, because I can land slower and shorter, I may turn my
downwind to final before I reach the approach end of the runway to
alleviate the long taxi. I will pick my landing spot down the runway at
a point where I can touch down, roll out and make the turn off.

In article , EDR
writes:


Don, you have to understand that what may be a "normal" or "standard"
pattern for metal spam cans is too high for a light, rag and tube
taildragger. The lighter weight and lower descent speeds would reek
havoc with your spam can descents and airspeeds in your "normal"
pattern.

In my 7AC, I can fly inside you and below and either land and be clear
before you turn final or, I can do a 360 between downwind and final and
land behind you if you are on final. There is no comparison between the
performance of aircraft.


You can, if you see me. But I am going to be high and behind you from the
moment you turn crosswind. Do you have one of those clear wings?

In the scenario I described, the Husky came from under and behind me as he
passed and cut me off in the pattern, he was obscurred by the wing and fuselage
of the Katana from the moment I lost sight of him on downwind.

If you fly that kind of pattern, I have no way to know you are even there until
I hear the thump.

Don

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

In article ,
(Bob Martin) wrote:

Anyone else here like to fly a tight (or tighter than normal) pattern?

The field we're based at (Falcon Field, FFC) has a pretty good-sized
training operation, and there are a lot of students out practicing
landings, especially on good days. What annoys me, though, is that
some of these students fly huge patterns--like 2-mile finals,
downwinds 1-2 miles out from the runway, etc. Sometimes, I'll end up
behind somebody in the pattern, only to realize that, by the time he
turns final, I could have done another touch and go and ended up
behind him.

IMHO, there's no reason to go flying a jet/heavy twin pattern in a
Cessna. I've always tried to fly mine 4 white on the PAPI, with
basically a continuous turn from downwind to final (leveling out for a
second just to check traffic).

AMEN! Here around Daytona Beach, we call them "Riddle Patterns." I fly
a high-performance antique and do a lot of overheads (usually as part of
a formation). I try to keep it in tight enough to make the runway even
dirty, power off. The result is keeping to less than 1/2 mile from the
runway.

"Bob Martin" wrote in message
om...
Anyone else here like to fly a tight (or tighter than normal) pattern?

The field we're based at (Falcon Field, FFC) has a pretty good-sized
training operation, and there are a lot of students out practicing
landings, especially on good days. What annoys me, though, is that
some of these students fly huge patterns--like 2-mile finals,
downwinds 1-2 miles out from the runway, etc. Sometimes, I'll end up
behind somebody in the pattern, only to realize that, by the time he
turns final, I could have done another touch and go and ended up
behind him.

IMHO, there's no reason to go flying a jet/heavy twin pattern in a
Cessna. I've always tried to fly mine 4 white on the PAPI, with
basically a continuous turn from downwind to final (leveling out for a
second just to check traffic).

Huge patterns must be part of the training syllabus locally. I fly out of
Cartersville, which is about 50 NM north of Falcon. Being about 15 miles
north of McCollum (a busy controlled field), we get all of McCollum's
overflow traffic from the various flight schools and other flyers who are
based at McCollum, but don't want to deal with the traffic there when
shooting touch and go's...

I can't count the number of times I've followed a 172 from Northside
Aviation that is flying a B-52 sized pattern with only him and me in the
pattern... AARGH!

Even better, the instructors from Northside like to use our local Unicom
frequency for air to air chat's... There is nothing more exciting than
trying to figure out where 8 aircraft (2 172's, 3 ultralights, a couple of
RV's, and a Lear Jet ) are in the patten when you're barraged with some 22
year old CFI's social plans for Saturday night.

KB

"Bob Martin" wrote in message
om...
| Anyone else here like to fly a tight (or tighter than normal) pattern?
|
| The field we're based at (Falcon Field, FFC) has a pretty good-sized
| training operation, and there are a lot of students out practicing
| landings, especially on good days. What annoys me, though, is that
| some of these students fly huge patterns--like 2-mile finals,
| downwinds 1-2 miles out from the runway, etc.

All of us at PAVCO constantly rail against students that fly bomber
patterns. None of MY students would ever do such a thing. It must be all
those other instructors' students. :-)

Our pattern at TIW is wider than I would like because of a local noise
abatement procedure -- the tower wants to keep downwind traffic out over
Wollochet Bay, which means you are more than a mile from the field. If it is
a north pattern, they don't want you to turn to crosswind until you are at
1000 feet or over the golf course, which is almost two miles out. Even so,
this pattern does not seem to be nearly big enough for a lot of people.

Bob,

The field we're based at (Falcon Field, FFC) has a pretty good-sized
training operation, and there are a lot of students out practicing
landings, especially on good days. What annoys me, though, is that
some of these students fly huge patterns--like 2-mile finals,
downwinds 1-2 miles out from the runway, etc. Sometimes, I'll end up
behind somebody in the pattern, only to realize that, by the time he
turns final, I could have done another touch and go and ended up
behind him.

You've discovered one of the real shortcomings of ab initio flight
training where they teach students how to become commuter airline
pilots rather than how to fly. Thus the giant sized patterns. It's a
true pain in the whatsis.

At controlled fields when I'm stuck behind some yahoo flying downwind
a mile from the field, I'll ask for a right pattern the next time
around, fly it tight and get in front of the slow motion stuff. Tower
usually understands and will cooperate. Sometimes a visit to the
tower to discuss it results in an understanding and they'll help you
out.

At uncontrolled fields, if it is just one airplane that is the problem
when I'm shooting landings, I'll simply fly a close in downwind and
ask the pilot of the offending airplane if he minds me flying a tight
pattern inside him one time. I've never had anyone refuse. A polite
inquiry has always worked for me.

All the best,
Rick

(Rick Durden) wrote in message om...
Bob,

The field we're based at (Falcon Field, FFC) has a pretty good-sized
training operation, and there are a lot of students out practicing
landings, especially on good days. What annoys me, though, is that
some of these students fly huge patterns--like 2-mile finals,
downwinds 1-2 miles out from the runway, etc. Sometimes, I'll end up
behind somebody in the pattern, only to realize that, by the time he
turns final, I could have done another touch and go and ended up
behind him.

You've discovered one of the real shortcomings of ab initio flight
training where they teach students how to become commuter airline
pilots rather than how to fly. Thus the giant sized patterns. It's a
true pain in the whatsis.

Exactly what the training is at Falcon... granted, I went through the
same course, but not with the intent of a commercial rating (at the
time, anyways). However, my instructor was the son of a South African
bush pilot... so I got a more "fly the airplane" approach than the
school's "follow the school-standard procedures." Thus, my next CFI
was shocked the first couple times he flew with me... but I made him
get over it And since I've started flying an RV-6 (as opposed to a
C-150) with my dad (former E-2 pilot), my pattern has gotten even
tighter...

At uncontrolled fields, if it is just one airplane that is the problem
when I'm shooting landings, I'll simply fly a close in downwind and
ask the pilot of the offending airplane if he minds me flying a tight
pattern inside him one time. I've never had anyone refuse. A polite
inquiry has always worked for me.

Yeah, I've asked if I can cut ahead of people before... it's real easy
to do, since passing the end of the runway I'm usually at 300ft AGL,
and climbing at least 1000fpm. When flying my normal pattern, I turn
crosswind then or shortly after... and flying a continuous turn to
downwind, I'll end up at 1000ft about the time I roll out.

(Rick Durden) wrote in message

At controlled fields when I'm stuck behind some yahoo flying downwind
a mile from the field, I'll ask for a right pattern the next time
around, fly it tight and get in front of the slow motion stuff. Tower
usually understands and will cooperate. Sometimes a visit to the
tower to discuss it results in an understanding and they'll help you
out.

I have had the tower asked me if I wanted to do right trafic to get
ahead of the other person.
This is also the same tower I have heard tell incoming trafic 1 Cessna
flying Huge pattern.
Most the instructor I have flown with there teach a tight pattern. I
assume this is the norm at this airport because of what I have heard
tower say.
Ron

Ron Hammer wrote:

(Rick Durden) wrote in message


At controlled fields when I'm stuck behind some yahoo flying downwind
a mile from the field, I'll ask for a right pattern the next time
around, fly it tight and get in front of the slow motion stuff. Tower
usually understands and will cooperate. Sometimes a visit to the
tower to discuss it results in an understanding and they'll help you
out.


I have had the tower asked me if I wanted to do right trafic to get
ahead of the other person.

No need to fly the other direction. Just have the tower start your base
early. Same goes for an uncontrolled pattern. I wouldn't hesitate to
cut somebody off if they flew a huge pattern.