when does a "remain clear" instruction end?

Class C: you have to establish two way radio contact and have
permission. The short answer is to request on course after
estaablishing two way radio contact.

Class B: you have to have a clearance.

EDR wrote

Class C: you have to establish two way radio contact and have
permission.

"Permission" is not acceptable air traffic control terminology.
If I am not told to "remain clear", I CAN fly in Class C and D.

Bob Moore

In article , Robert
Moore wrote:

EDR wrote

Class C: you have to establish two way radio contact and have
permission.

"Permission" is not acceptable air traffic control terminology.
If I am not told to "remain clear", I CAN fly in Class C and D.

I understand that. I went round and round with FAA HQ on this issue in
the 1980's. Permission is the word they used. From there the arguement
turned to what constituted permission.

Basic rules for Class C is paragraph 3-2-4 of the AIM:
1. When controller responds WITH your tail number that is clearance to enter
the class C airspace..
2. Exception to this rule is if the controller says, "Remain outside the
class Charlie airspace and standby." he is expected/required to use that
exact phrase

Now, the rule not printed that I can see is the exact phrase for
cancelling the remain clear instruction... So, per the Class C rules when
the controller called you back the second time by 'tail number', and said,
"radar contact established", etc., that was again establishing radio contact
(per rule #1) and absent instructions to the contrary you are now cleared to
enter the class C, and if he doesn't like your new heading, he will say
so...

Therefore, you were cleared and did not bust any rules...
I would have preferred that he said, cleared to enter my airspace, or the
class c, etc., somewhere in his patter - obviously he understands rule #1
and expects you to also understand it...
denny
"Arden Prinz" wrote in message
om...
Recently I was departing a small airport (with no control tower) which
was underneath the class C shelf area of a somewhat larger airport
(which is an air force base). Immediately before departing, I called
the approach controller for the class C airspace and told him that I
was departing and would like flight following. I was actually hoping
to fly straight over the larger airport (they weren't busy due to the
time). The approach controller assigned me a transponder code and
told me "after departure remain clear of the class C airspace". So
after I took of, I started flying a route taking me around the class C
area that extended to the surface. Well, the controller then called
me by my tail number and asked some questions (I don't remember
exactly what -- it might have been my expected cruising altitude and
aircraft type, I think he may have also said radar contact, although I
can't remember the specifics right now). As soon as this happened, I
turned and headed directly toward my destination, taking me across the
class C to the surface airspace. A fellow pilot was with me, and he
later mentioned that thought I might have violated the controller's
instructions. Hmmmm... That brings up a question --- when does the
"remain clear of class C airspace" instruction end? I figured that
since he called my by tail number and was clearly communicating with
me and didn't assign any vectors or repeat his direction to remain
clear, that it was now understood that I could enter. The controller
didn't give any indication that I had done anything wrong, but I want
to be sure that I understand this for the future. So ... if I'm told
to remain clear in the future, WHEN does that end?

Thank-you.

"Dennis O'Connor" wrote

Basic rules for Class C is paragraph 3-2-4 of the AIM:
1. When controller responds WITH your tail number that
is clearance to enter the class C airspace..

Dennis, the word "clearance" has specific meaning in aviation and
NO clearance is required, nor given, for VFR a/c to enter Class C
airspace.

Quoting from the AIM:

"1. If the controller responds to a radio call with,
"(aircraft callsign) standby," radio communications
have been established and the pilot can enter the
Class C airspace."


Bob Moore

"Dennis O'Connor" wrote in message
...

Basic rules for Class C is paragraph 3-2-4 of the AIM:
1. When controller responds WITH your tail number that is
clearance to enter the class C airspace..
2. Exception to this rule is if the controller says, "Remain outside the
class Charlie airspace and standby." he is expected/required to use that
exact phrase

Now, the rule not printed that I can see is the exact phrase for
cancelling the remain clear instruction... So, per the Class C rules when
the controller called you back the second time by 'tail number', and said,
"radar contact established", etc., that was again establishing radio
contact
(per rule #1) and absent instructions to the contrary you are now cleared
to enter the class C, and if he doesn't like your new heading, he will say
so...


Wrong. Once told to memain clear you must remain clear until the controller
issues an instruction that permits entry.



Therefore, you were cleared and did not bust any rules...
I would have preferred that he said, cleared to enter my airspace, or the
class c, etc., somewhere in his patter - obviously he understands rule #1
and expects you to also understand it...


Once told to remain clear, entering without an explicit instruction that
permitted entry, such as "proceed on course" or "fly heading xxx", would be
a violation of FAR 91.123(b).

Ahh jeez, Steven... Firstly, because the question was not one for which
there is a pat answer in the AIM, I researched my answer before giving
it... A habit more people on here could benefit from... And, even though I
couched my answer in gentle terms, it is the correct regulatory answer, not
a guess...

As I commented, I don't see specific phrase in the AIM for the controller to
use for clearing an aircraft into the Class C after being told to stand
clear - and it might be a good idea...

But I could still be wrong, so I just polled both the Supervisor of a Class
C airspace, and I polled the supervisor of the Michigan FSDO... Both agree
that the AIM is correct... A pilot is cleared into the class C when the
controller establishes radio contact using the tail number; and does not
instruct him to remain clear... Nothing more is required...

So, on the first call the pilot was told, "Aircraft calling remain clear of
Charlie?, or "November 1234 remain clear of Class Charlie.", or words to
that effect... Fine, we all agree he is to remain clear...
Now the controller calls a bit later and says something to the effect,
"November 1234, radar contact 8 miles east of xyz, altimeter 30 point 00",
or some variation and shuts up - because he has established radio contact
which is 'the clearance to enter'...

So, I asked both, wouldn't you tell the pilot that he is now 'cleared to
enter the C', to avoid confusion.. They both replied that there is no
confusion... The clearance to enter a Class C airspace is establishing radio
contact using the tail number exactly as spelled out in the AIM..
denny

"Steven P. McNicoll" Wrong. Once told to memain clear you must remain
clear until the controller
issues an instruction that permits entry.

Even though I think there is some grey area here, I agree with the overly
curt but usually accurate Steven.

The last instruction issued was "remain clear' and that was issued, by tail
number, by approach to the aircraft (they would not have issued a
transponder without a tail number).

The grey area is that the 'remain clear' was issued *before departure*.
Once in the air, it seems reasonable to assume that an acknowleged call with
tail number is clearance in. But it seems ill advised to proceed on such an
assumption.

Here's the problem faced by the controller - a pilot asks for FF or whatever
before takeoff. The controller has absolutely no way to fix the time the
pilot will depart. So in order to avoid a misunderstanding about being
cleared into Class C while on the ground, he issues a 'remain clear' by
default. Once the pilot is in the air, the normal provisions would then
apply. An acknowledged call would be clearance into the space unless a
'remain clear' is issued. I'd bet that's what the controller intended ....
but I wouldn't act on it. It's a nasty grey area and requires some explicit
clarification before proceeding.

In IFR land, the problem is avoided by issuing a void time clearance in
order to fix the time that the pilot takes off and airspace has to be
cleared.

"Dennis O'Connor" wrote in message
...
Ahh jeez, Steven... Firstly, because the question was not one for which
there is a pat answer in the AIM, I researched my answer before giving
it... A habit more people on here could benefit from... And, even though
I
couched my answer in gentle terms, it is the correct regulatory answer,
not
a guess...

As I commented, I don't see specific phrase in the AIM for the controller
to
use for clearing an aircraft into the Class C after being told to stand
clear - and it might be a good idea...

But I could still be wrong, so I just polled both the Supervisor of a
Class
C airspace, and I polled the supervisor of the Michigan FSDO... Both
agree
that the AIM is correct... A pilot is cleared into the class C when the
controller establishes radio contact using the tail number; and does not
instruct him to remain clear... Nothing more is required...

So, on the first call the pilot was told, "Aircraft calling remain clear
of
Charlie?, or "November 1234 remain clear of Class Charlie.", or words to
that effect... Fine, we all agree he is to remain clear...
Now the controller calls a bit later and says something to the effect,
"November 1234, radar contact 8 miles east of xyz, altimeter 30 point 00",
or some variation and shuts up - because he has established radio
contact
which is 'the clearance to enter'...

So, I asked both, wouldn't you tell the pilot that he is now 'cleared to
enter the C', to avoid confusion.. They both replied that there is no
confusion... The clearance to enter a Class C airspace is establishing
radio
contact using the tail number exactly as spelled out in the AIM..
denny

"Steven P. McNicoll" Wrong. Once told to memain clear you must remain
clear until the controller
issues an instruction that permits entry.

"Maule Driver" wrote in message
m...
Even though I think there is some grey area here, I agree with the overly
curt but usually accurate Steven.

One of the things expressed by the folks I talked to; they get frustrated by
pilots who enter the system and do not understand the most basic of rules,
even when the controller uses the exact phrasing that the AIM calls out...
As the one said, "I'm here for safety of flight, not to be your CFI..."
denny

"Dennis O'Connor" wrote in message
...

Ahh jeez, Steven... Firstly, because the question was not one for which
there is a pat answer in the AIM, I researched my answer before giving
it... A habit more people on here could benefit from... And, even though
I couched my answer in gentle terms, it is the correct regulatory answer,
not a guess...


Your answer is wrong, and the AIM is not regulatory.



As I commented, I don't see specific phrase in the AIM for the
controller to use for clearing an aircraft into the Class C after being
told to stand clear - and it might be a good idea...


Specific phrases for controller usage are found in FAA Order 7110.65, but
there is no phrase like "cancel your last instruction and now comply with
this instruction", nor should there be. Previous instructions are simply
overridden by subsequent instructions. For example, an aircraft may have
been instructed to "fly heading 360", and a bit later is instructed to "turn
right heading 020". The 360 heading isn't cancelled prior to the issuance
of the 020 heading, the 360 heading is simply overridden by the 020 heading.



But I could still be wrong, so I just polled both the Supervisor of a
Class C airspace, and I polled the supervisor of the Michigan FSDO...
Both agree that the AIM is correct... A pilot is cleared into the class
C when the controller establishes radio contact using the tail number;
and does not instruct him to remain clear... Nothing more is required...


That's true, but that's not what happened in this case. In this case the
pilot was instructed to remain clear of the Class C airspace.



So, on the first call the pilot was told, "Aircraft calling remain clear
of Charlie?, or "November 1234 remain clear of Class Charlie.",
or words to that effect... Fine, we all agree he is to remain clear...
Now the controller calls a bit later and says something to the effect,
"November 1234, radar contact 8 miles east of xyz, altimeter 30
point 00", or some variation and shuts up - because he has
established radio contact which is 'the clearance to enter'...


Wrong. Radio contact was established when the controller said, "November
1234 remain clear of Class Charlie."



So, I asked both, wouldn't you tell the pilot that he is now 'cleared to
enter the C', to avoid confusion.. They both replied that there is no
confusion... The clearance to enter a Class C airspace is establishing
radio contact using the tail number exactly as spelled out in the AIM..


Yes, if nothing else is said that is correct. But in this case the aircraft
was instructed to remain clear of Class C airspace and that instruction
remains in effect until some instruction is issued that permits entry.