USA Competition Rules Changes Proposed for 2013

On Tuesday, January 22, 2013 6:01:13 PM UTC-5, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
On Jan 22, 3:06*pm, wrote: On Tuesday, January 22, 2013 9:19:40 AM UTC-5, Tony wrote: Why do you need to lobby for radio and sage? I thought the 2013 rules will allow radio use. The rules for 2013 permit pilot to pilot radio communication in regional contests without the previously required waiver. The organizers may choose to allow this or not and are permitted to establish procedures appropriate for their contest. UH RC Chair It will be interesting to see how this rule is received. 27% of pilots were opposed to this rule. Are these pilots going to stay home or try to make the best out of the situation and give it a try. I see good arguments on both sides. I did not see much in terms of implementation thoughts or guidance e.g. are all pilots still required to listen on 123..3? I assume yes since the other rule is still in place. Do we allow pilots to talk on other frequencies than the 123.3? If so do we designate one or two of them or is it free for all? Designated frequencies for a given contest would be good for monitoring what is going on. I would like to know who is flying in what group and how that translates to results on the score sheet. Most pilots don't have radios allowing them to listen to two frequencies are these pilots going to tune out of 123.3 causing safety issues. In the worlds as I understand each team is assigned their frequency. Are pilots also required to listen to another frequency for safety reasons. I assume this must be true at least during the start and finish what about the task? This is a subject that needs to be well thought through. I would expect some guidance so we don't have wild west every contest doing something else causing plenty of confusion.

You raise some very good points.
If you were the competition director for a regional contest with, say 30 gliders in 2 classes,like Sports and FAI, what guidelines would you put into place?
UH

On Jan 22, 6:42*pm, wrote:
On Tuesday, January 22, 2013 6:01:13 PM UTC-5, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
On Jan 22, 3:06*pm, wrote: On Tuesday, January 22, 2013 9:19:40 AM UTC-5, Tony wrote: Why do you need to lobby for radio and sage? I thought the 2013 rules will allow radio use. The rules for 2013 permit pilot to pilot radio communication in regional contests without the previously required waiver. The organizers may choose to allow this or not and are permitted to establish procedures appropriate for their contest. UH RC Chair It will be interesting to see how this rule is received. 27% of pilots were opposed to this rule. Are these pilots going to stay home or try to make the best out of the situation and give it a try. I see good arguments on both sides. I did not see much in terms of implementation thoughts or guidance e.g. are all pilots still required to listen on 123.3? I assume yes since the other rule is still in place. Do we allow pilots to talk on other frequencies than the 123.3? If so do we designate one or two of them or is it free for all? Designated frequencies for a given contest would be good for monitoring what is going on. I would like to know who is flying in what group and how that translates to results on the score sheet. Most pilots don't have radios allowing them to listen to two frequencies are these pilots going to tune out of 123.3 causing safety issues. In the worlds as I understand each team is assigned their frequency. Are pilots also required to listen to another frequency for safety reasons. I assume this must be true at least during the start and finish what about the task? This is a subject that needs to be well thought through. I would expect some guidance so we don't have wild west every contest doing something else causing plenty of confusion.

You raise some very good points.
If you were the competition director for a regional contest with, say 30 gliders in 2 classes,like Sports and FAI, what guidelines would you put into place?
UH

I don't have the answers.
1) Keep the 123.3 free of radio pollution.
2) Everyone is required to monitor 123.3 at all times. I have to admit
in the past due to excessive radio chatter I lowered the volume and I
missed safety alerts. There is no excuse for this.
3) I would probably let pilots choose their frequencies. Pilots should
keep in mind they should not be violating Federal rules by picking
frequencies they should not be on.
4) Every team should register their frequency so it is no secret and a
list is available to all pilots.
5) There is also a need for one more point that stresses the
importance of fully focusing on 123.3 before start and within x miles
from finish.

Anyway this is just my point of view, in no way I claim I thought this
through but it seems like these guidelines could work. I wonder what
others think.

As the minutes show, the RC recognizes the radio issues problem, but does not think that passing one size fits all rules from on high, in the absence of any experience, is the way to do it. What works for a 6 glider sports class regionals and what works for 60 gliders in a big event like Perry will be different. What works when the focus is "mentoring" and what works when the focus is "practice pair flying" will be different.

Obviously a wise CD will tell pilots to stay off 123.3 in the 15 minutes before the start, and stay off 123.3 or use a unicom frequency for traffic during launch.

In general, I think it will be a good idea for us all to stay away from too much winter rule-making. There is a tendency to make complex procedures to avoid imaginary problems. I think it would be better to keep it loose, see where there are really problems, and address them as they come up.

The Feburary Soaring will contain several articles on radios in contests, to spark thoughts not just about rules but about how we can use this change to make contests more fun for everybody.

John Cochrane

On Tuesday, January 22, 2013 8:28:29 PM UTC-5, wrote:
As the minutes show, the RC recognizes the radio issues problem, but does not think that passing one size fits all rules from on high, in the absence of any experience, is the way to do it. What works for a 6 glider sports class regionals and what works for 60 gliders in a big event like Perry will be different. What works when the focus is "mentoring" and what works when the focus is "practice pair flying" will be different.



Obviously a wise CD will tell pilots to stay off 123.3 in the 15 minutes before the start, and stay off 123.3 or use a unicom frequency for traffic during launch.



In general, I think it will be a good idea for us all to stay away from too much winter rule-making. There is a tendency to make complex procedures to avoid imaginary problems. I think it would be better to keep it loose, see where there are really problems, and address them as they come up.



The Feburary Soaring will contain several articles on radios in contests, to spark thoughts not just about rules but about how we can use this change to make contests more fun for everybody.



John Cochrane

At the Worlds each team is assigned a frequency, which is public. Anyone can follow the transmissions (provided they speak several languages :-) Team HQ also use this frequency to talk to their pilots.

Pilots are on the contest frequency until after starting and shortly before finishing.

I am a big fan of team flying in the US rules. However, flying in complex contest environments with multiple frequencies warrants some additional precautions and responsibilities that contest management and team flying pilots should be required to follow...

1) Contest manager's/directors should find (and confirm before each year's contest) a number of team frequencies as part of their preparation for the contest. Perhaps only 5-8 are needed even for a large event like Perry or Nationals to begin with. These frequencies should be provided to those wishing to team fly on a first come first serve basis. A limited number of team channels would be smart at first. Letting team contest pilots pick their own "willi-nilli" frequency is asking for trouble. These frequencies should be published (part of the pilots kit) so other pilots can identify the frequencies other teams might be on in an emergency or for a special circumstance (freq sheet carried in cockpit or published on task sheet).

2) In combination with "1)", it should be required that team flying pilots with assigned team frequencies must have a second radio (handheld) and monitor 123.3 while on the team channel during the task. This is a simple, very low cost communication solution which eliminates various "team's" from being oblivious to the other pilots around them if communication is necessary.. It is the only responsible way to fly as a team on a separate frequency in my opinion. If this rule not complied with, then team flying privileges should be revoked from that team. Perhaps only one glider of the pair needs the handheld, but some basic form of 123.3 monitoring must be required.

Sean
F2

On Wednesday, January 23, 2013 2:08:03 PM UTC-5, Sean F (F2) wrote:
I am a big fan of team flying in the US rules. However, flying in complex contest environments with multiple frequencies warrants some additional precautions and responsibilities that contest management and team flying pilots should be required to follow... 1) Contest manager's/directors should find (and confirm before each year's contest) a number of team frequencies as part of their preparation for the contest. Perhaps only 5-8 are needed even for a large event like Perry or Nationals to begin with. These frequencies should be provided to those wishing to team fly on a first come first serve basis. A limited number of team channels would be smart at first. Letting team contest pilots pick their own "willi-nilli" frequency is asking for trouble. These frequencies should be published (part of the pilots kit) so other pilots can identify the frequencies other teams might be on in an emergency or for a special circumstance (freq sheet carried in cockpit or published on task sheet). 2) In combination with "1)", it should be required that team flying pilots with assigned team frequencies must have a second radio (handheld) and monitor 123.3 while on the team channel during the task. This is a simple, very low cost communication solution which eliminates various "team's" from being oblivious to the other pilots around them if communication is necessary. It is the only responsible way to fly as a team on a separate frequency in my opinion. If this rule not complied with, then team flying privileges should be revoked from that team. Perhaps only one glider of the pair needs the handheld, but some basic form of 123.3 monitoring must be required. Sean F2

Monotoring the contest frequency is a really good idea, but how would that ever be enforced?
Can you advise frequencies you think would be usable. I know of 123.3, 123.5, and 122.75 as being legal. Where would we get other legal frequencies?
The devil is in the details.
UH

On Wednesday, January 23, 2013 2:23:14 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Wednesday, January 23, 2013 2:08:03 PM UTC-5, Sean F (F2) wrote: I am a big fan of team flying in the US rules. However, flying in complex contest environments with multiple frequencies warrants some additional precautions and responsibilities that contest management and team flying pilots should be required to follow... 1) Contest manager's/directors should find (and confirm before each year's contest) a number of team frequencies as part of their preparation for the contest. Perhaps only 5-8 are needed even for a large event like Perry or Nationals to begin with. These frequencies should be provided to those wishing to team fly on a first come first serve basis. A limited number of team channels would be smart at first. Letting team contest pilots pick their own "willi-nilli" frequency is asking for trouble. These frequencies should be published (part of the pilots kit) so other pilots can identify the frequencies other teams might be on in an emergency or for a special circumstance (freq sheet carried in cockpit or published on task sheet). 2) In combination with "1)", it should be required that team flying pilots with assigned team frequencies must have a second radio (handheld) and monitor 123.3 while on the team channel during the task. This is a simple, very low cost communication solution which eliminates various "team's" from being oblivious to the other pilots around them if communication is necessary. It is the only responsible way to fly as a team on a separate frequency in my opinion. If this rule not complied with, then team flying privileges should be revoked from that team. Perhaps only one glider of the pair needs the handheld, but some basic form of 123.3 monitoring must be required. Sean F2 Monotoring the contest frequency is a really good idea, but how would that ever be enforced? Can you advise frequencies you think would be usable. I know of 123.3, 123.5, and 122.75 as being legal. Where would we get other legal frequencies? The devil is in the details. UH

i believe 122.85 is also good for air-to-air? otherwise to be proper you'll need to contact the FCC.

On Jan 23, 1:08*pm, "Sean F (F2)" wrote:
I am a big fan of team flying in the US rules. *However, flying in complex contest environments with multiple frequencies warrants some additional precautions and responsibilities that contest management and team flying pilots should be required to follow...

1) Contest manager's/directors should find (and confirm before each year's contest) a number of team frequencies as part of their preparation for the contest. *Perhaps only 5-8 are needed even for a large event like Perry or Nationals to begin with. *These frequencies should be provided to those wishing to team fly on a first come first serve basis. *A limited number of team channels would be smart at first. *Letting team contest pilots pick their own "willi-nilli" frequency is asking for trouble. *These frequencies should be published (part of the pilots kit) so other pilots can identify the frequencies other teams might be on in an emergency or for a special circumstance (freq sheet carried in cockpit or published on task sheet).

2) In combination with "1)", it should be required that team flying pilots with assigned team frequencies must have a second radio (handheld) and monitor 123.3 while on the team channel during the task. *This is a simple, very low cost communication solution which eliminates various "team's" from being oblivious to the other pilots around them if communication is necessary. *It is the only responsible way to fly as a team on a separate frequency in my opinion. *If this rule not complied with, then team flying privileges should be revoked from that team. *Perhaps only one glider of the pair needs the handheld, but some basic form of 123.3 monitoring must be required.

Sean
F2

Team flying in US regionals is not likely to resemble team flying in
the WGC. As Hank points out, we don't have legal frequencies to hand
out to everybody. Moreover, our pilots do not naturally come in two-
pilot national teams, who have practiced pair flying extensively. And,
biggest of all, the point here is not to give practice for the US
team, it is for all of us to have fun.

Given all these facts, I expect pilot-to-pilot communication at
regionals to develop in a much less structured way. I expect there
will be a lot more "mentoring." I expect larger and less formal groups
to form.

Most of all, this must be fun. If we get to the end of the season and
team members say "that was great practice," but everybody else says
"that was a pain in the butt, and now I feel like I can't compete
without a hot team member," the experiment will be over. If you're a
"hot" pilot, and you want this to continue, be extra courteous and
inclusive this season!

With all this in mind, it will probably be better to have one main
frequency for each class. That makes it easier to find people as you
go along. It also preserves some of the traditional safety principle
of being able to talk to each other on a common frequency. It makes
the sportsmanship and openness aspect more reasonable. Teams of
hotshots should not mind a few lemmings tagging along and learning
their tricks. And it doesn't chew up the few available frequencies.

Mandating two radios is a lot of extra rules. When we allow team
flying, we're giving up on the idea that everyone is on 123.3.
(Though, in reality, lots of pilots already were turning off their
radios.)

However, that means we will all have to be careful about not talking
too much. Pilots who want to do very close pair flying and talk all
the time probably should find their own frequency.

The lack of frequencies means we should probably allow use of 123.3,
with commonsense restrictions like not talking just before the start
gate opens, and during launch and recovery unless a separate unicom
frequency is being used for those.

More thoughts in "team flying," the first link here

http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/john...m#safety_rules

Let me repeat the big picture though. For most of us, do not think of
this innovation as meaning that regoinals will all be two-pilot teams
practicing wingtip to wingtip pair flying and talking constantly on
one assigned radio frequency. For most of us, this is likely to mean
more informal cooperation mentoring in larger groups, and the big
payoff should be having more fun and learning more. When thinking
about how to structure things, keep that picture in mind.

John Cochrane.

Agreed, perhaps just a strong recommendation. ;-)

For available frequencies I would imagine contacting local/regional ATC and asking for a meeting or recommendation for some open frequencies?

Spratt must be doing several hundred rpm at this point.

Charlie hated unnecessary radio chatter at contests . I can remember him
chastising the offenders: "You bark like a bunch of dogs..."

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