On balance, are Moving Map PNAs better than Cambridge 302/303 styleLCD navigation?

One thing people don't understand: Part of setting up a PNA or other
moving-map display PROPERLY is setting it up so you don't _*need*_ to
stare at it to get important information. :-)

For example: With LK8000 on my PNA I set it up so landable points that
are within glide range (with a safety-margin) are highlighted big and
GREEN. Unreachable ones are marked in RED. At a glance I can see if
there are big green dots on my display - meaning that I have options
if things start to go to hell. I don't have to scroll through lists or
have my brain interpret numbers and letters (which take a certain
amount of processing and interpretation by the brain). I just know
that "Green Dots" = Landout Options. And at a glance I can also see
roughly in what direction they are and how far away they are, relative
to me.

Now, secondarily I have LK8000 display my arrival altitude next to
each green dot (again, with a safety margin built-in). IF I have time,
I can look at that number and decide how easily I can make it to that
point. And if the cockpit workload is low enough, I can glance at that
number once every 30-60 seconds over a 3-5 minute period and easily
detect if the number is growing or shrinking. If its growing, I'm
"beating" my glide and can have confidence I'll make it there. If the
number is shrinking, then I know I'm not likely to make it, given the
way my glide is trending (badly). However, all of these mental
gymnastics are secondary tasks. I only need to glance at the screen to
get "the big picture" and the overall gist of things.

There are lots more examples I could give like this (such as a bright
PNA with good terrain coloration helping you visualize whether you're
flying into rising or lowering terrain, whether you have to cross
mountains or valleys in your path, etc); but hopefully the example
above helps get the point across.

--Noel

Now if I had an AOA indicator with nice bright LEDs, I wouldn't even
need to look at the airspeed when slow (pattern, gaggling, etc).
That would be really trick!

Use a sidestring?

On Thursday, May 23, 2013 12:40:19 PM UTC+2, Roel Baardman wrote:
Now if I had an AOA indicator with nice bright LEDs, I wouldn't even

need to look at the airspeed when slow (pattern, gaggling, etc).

That would be really trick!



Use a sidestring?

Tried it. Too sensitive to yaw, and not in the right place to see easily. And they get caught in the canopy when you close it...

66

All good advice, though I question the need for terrain to be displayed vs.
simply looking outside. Then, again, I fly where the visibility is rarely
*less* than 100 miles. Perhaps, in other locations, a terrain display
helps.

As to the kid texting while riding the bike - I hope he ran into a bus.


"noel.wade" wrote in message
...
One thing people don't understand: Part of setting up a PNA or other
moving-map display PROPERLY is setting it up so you don't _*need*_ to
stare at it to get important information. :-)

For example: With LK8000 on my PNA I set it up so landable points that
are within glide range (with a safety-margin) are highlighted big and
GREEN. Unreachable ones are marked in RED. At a glance I can see if
there are big green dots on my display - meaning that I have options
if things start to go to hell. I don't have to scroll through lists or
have my brain interpret numbers and letters (which take a certain
amount of processing and interpretation by the brain). I just know
that "Green Dots" = Landout Options. And at a glance I can also see
roughly in what direction they are and how far away they are, relative
to me.

Now, secondarily I have LK8000 display my arrival altitude next to
each green dot (again, with a safety margin built-in). IF I have time,
I can look at that number and decide how easily I can make it to that
point. And if the cockpit workload is low enough, I can glance at that
number once every 30-60 seconds over a 3-5 minute period and easily
detect if the number is growing or shrinking. If its growing, I'm
"beating" my glide and can have confidence I'll make it there. If the
number is shrinking, then I know I'm not likely to make it, given the
way my glide is trending (badly). However, all of these mental
gymnastics are secondary tasks. I only need to glance at the screen to
get "the big picture" and the overall gist of things.

There are lots more examples I could give like this (such as a bright
PNA with good terrain coloration helping you visualize whether you're
flying into rising or lowering terrain, whether you have to cross
mountains or valleys in your path, etc); but hopefully the example
above helps get the point across.

--Noel

On Thursday, May 23, 2013 9:50:21 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
All good advice, though I question the need for terrain to be displayed vs.

simply looking outside. Then, again, I fly where the visibility is rarely

*less* than 100 miles. Perhaps, in other locations, a terrain display

helps.


Certainly in Appalachian ridge country, terrain maps are hugely useful. Knowing which of the 3 low ridges ahead is the one with the valley in front or which one has the big gap in it is very helpful for newbies to an area. More importantly, my ClearNav gives a very easy to use visual indication of whether I'm going to clear a ridge when making transitions.

P3

I use both. L-Nave/GPS Nav combo. The Dell Streak with XCSoar is fantastic for situational awareness and I rarely fiddle with it in flight since I can see what I can reach. Maybe zoom in or out. Usually set MC2 and forget it although I have the polar degraded to about 32:1 for my Duo to pad my margins. As mentioned before, it is the trend of things I pay most attention to. Flying out west where we have lots of airports and landable fields, the terrain and other details aren't really that important.

I use the GPS-Nav for more point specific items. Point it at useful waypoint on course for relaying position info to fellow flyers so that we can get a sense of where we are relative to each other. I also like the L-Nav for final glide since it is right there in the panel front and center and has air-data that XCSoar doesn't so it knows about changes to the winds.

I could get by just fine with either. Air data into XCSoar or some other moving map would be my preference if I had to pick just one. The benefits of the added awareness without fiddling are quite apparent.

For contest flying in turn area or MAT tasks XCSoar is great. Just fly over the turnpoint and it adds it to your list. Arm a turn area as soon as you want to make your turn and move on to the next waypoint.

Backup devices are sure nice to have in the plane though. The tablets are good, but way more crash prone than an SN-10 or L-Nav it seems.

Morgan

On Thursday, May 23, 2013 10:07:36 AM UTC-7, Papa3 wrote:
On Thursday, May 23, 2013 9:50:21 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:

All good advice, though I question the need for terrain to be displayed vs.



simply looking outside. Then, again, I fly where the visibility is rarely



*less* than 100 miles. Perhaps, in other locations, a terrain display



helps.





Certainly in Appalachian ridge country, terrain maps are hugely useful. Knowing which of the 3 low ridges ahead is the one with the valley in front or which one has the big gap in it is very helpful for newbies to an area.. More importantly, my ClearNav gives a very easy to use visual indication of whether I'm going to clear a ridge when making transitions.



P3

On May 23, 10:07*am, Papa3 wrote:
On Thursday, May 23, 2013 9:50:21 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
All good advice, though I question the need for terrain to be displayed vs.
simply looking outside. *Then, again, I fly where the visibility is rarely
*less* than 100 miles. *Perhaps, in other locations, a terrain display
helps.

Certainly in Appalachian ridge country, *terrain maps are hugely useful.. *Knowing which of the 3 low ridges ahead is the one with the valley in
front or which one has the big gap in it is very helpful for newbies to an area.

Additionally, its useful for orienting yourself in terrain or
territory that's confusing or unfamiliar. Major road intersections
and especially Lake shorelines are very distinctive and the human eye
is good at interpreting them even when approaching them from an odd
angle. Mountains, random fields, and small-towns can be
indistinguishable or easily confused for other similar items when
approached from an unfamiliar direction or under certain lighting
conditions. Displaying these major land features on a moving map helps
orient you, relative to the terrain, your desired bearing, and
possible landouts.

Here's a good example: You're 10 miles from a lake, flying towards it
and worried about getting low. You know there is a landout field you
can use near the lake-shore, if things don't improve. You'll want to
ask yourself: Is that known-good-landout-field on the LEFT side of the
lake, or the RIGHT side of the lake? You don't want to fly to the
wrong side and then try to cross the water at low altitude! With an
LCD display, you would probably have to go "heads down" and scroll
through several screens to look at possible landouts nearby and then
do the mental gymnastics based on a bearing to the waypoint, to
determine if the landout field is on the left side of the lake or the
right side of the lake - relative to your current position. With a
moving map you glance at the screen and can SEE the landout field
highlighted, and where it is relative to your positon and the lake.
You can compare what you see over the nose of your glider with the
map, and instantly understand where it is and what you have to do to
fly towards it.

--Noel

On Thursday, May 23, 2013 1:40:41 PM UTC-4, Morgan wrote:
I use both. L-Nave/GPS Nav combo. The Dell Streak with XCSoar is fantastic for situational awareness and I rarely fiddle with it in flight since I can see what I can reach. Maybe zoom in or out. Usually set MC2 and forget it although I have the polar degraded to about 32:1 for my Duo to pad my margins. As mentioned before, it is the trend of things I pay most attention to. Flying out west where we have lots of airports and landable fields, the terrain and other details aren't really that important.

Another important point BTW. The newer systems are getting better and better at information visualization. I fly the same way with my ClearNav. Once I enter the task and head out on course, I almost never push any buttons or spend time staring at the screen. A quick glance confirms where I am, where I'm heading, what I can reach, and the trends of glide performance, etc.

A lot of the old-time pundits who haven't flown with these devices lament the "increase in heads-down time." For me, it's just the opposite. I spend way less time in the cockpit than I did in the days of paper maps or first generation Garmin 12 Navigation.

My Dell Streak receives air data via Bluetooth from my CAI-302.


"Morgan" wrote in message
...
I use both. L-Nave/GPS Nav combo. The Dell Streak with XCSoar is fantastic
for situational awareness and I rarely fiddle with it in flight since I can
see what I can reach. Maybe zoom in or out. Usually set MC2 and forget it
although I have the polar degraded to about 32:1 for my Duo to pad my
margins. As mentioned before, it is the trend of things I pay most
attention to. Flying out west where we have lots of airports and landable
fields, the terrain and other details aren't really that important.

I use the GPS-Nav for more point specific items. Point it at useful
waypoint on course for relaying position info to fellow flyers so that we
can get a sense of where we are relative to each other. I also like the
L-Nav for final glide since it is right there in the panel front and center
and has air-data that XCSoar doesn't so it knows about changes to the winds.

I could get by just fine with either. Air data into XCSoar or some other
moving map would be my preference if I had to pick just one. The benefits
of the added awareness without fiddling are quite apparent.

For contest flying in turn area or MAT tasks XCSoar is great. Just fly over
the turnpoint and it adds it to your list. Arm a turn area as soon as you
want to make your turn and move on to the next waypoint.

Backup devices are sure nice to have in the plane though. The tablets are
good, but way more crash prone than an SN-10 or L-Nav it seems.

Morgan

On Thursday, May 23, 2013 10:07:36 AM UTC-7, Papa3 wrote:
On Thursday, May 23, 2013 9:50:21 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:

All good advice, though I question the need for terrain to be displayed
vs.



simply looking outside. Then, again, I fly where the visibility is
rarely



*less* than 100 miles. Perhaps, in other locations, a terrain display



helps.





Certainly in Appalachian ridge country, terrain maps are hugely useful.
Knowing which of the 3 low ridges ahead is the one with the valley in
front or which one has the big gap in it is very helpful for newbies to an
area. More importantly, my ClearNav gives a very easy to use visual
indication of whether I'm going to clear a ridge when making transitions.



P3

I'd like to know what BT interface/adapter you are using,
or, if you had experience with different adapters, then could you
recommend the best between them...

thank you very much

aldo cernezzi
www.voloavela.it



On Thu, 23 May 2013 17:45:22 -0600, "Dan Marotta"
wrote:

My Dell Streak receives air data via Bluetooth from my CAI-302.