Best cross country ship class

Good feedback.

So, I'll run this by my CFI-G and some more of my club mates.

Here is where I am now:
Discus 2b
ASW-27
a distant third: SZD 55-1
long shot: DG 303 Elan (this is probably a DQ due to A/D spar issue)

In my research, it has become clear that the Discus is pretty much the best standard class you can get.

For the 15m class I like the ASW for some reason, even though the Ventus 2 seems to win many more championships.

I'm open to comments and advice from all, especially if you have flown any of these ships. I'm going to make a buy decision in the next week or so...hopefully.

Thanks for the help!

Flaps (27, V2) have small but distinct advantages. Thermal slower, see over the nose, very high speed glides, ridge bombing, final approach steeper, land slower, better takeoff control. I think they are abundantly worth the roughly $5-$10k price you pay.

As others pointed out, modern flapped gliders are very easy to fly -- no real extra skill needed. Really, the only reason unflapped gliders exist is because there was an FAI class that said no flaps.

Notice "was." The standard class is dying out as a competition class. Though no new standard/15 meter gliders are being made, 15 meter will remain a very competitive essentially one design class for a long time. If you buy standard, get ready to join club class, handicapped regionals, or suffer flap envy in 15 meter. Sure, everyone says the performance is "almost" the same, and winning is up to the pilot, and you're only giving up 20 points a day.. Are you going to be happy with that?

If you buy standard, you will be thinking for a long time, "should I move up to flaps?" If you buy 15, that won't be nagging you. Of course, "should I pay another $80k for 18 meters" will start nagging you, but that's easier to ignore.

John Cochrane (Pegasus, Discus CS, ASW27)

In terms of flaps, basically if you're not going to be cruising more than
75 knots (unballasted) most of the time, it doesn't really matter if you're
in a standard or flapped ship. Effectively, a standard ship has two "flap"
settings built into its airfoil; thermalling and cruising. The cruising
part is in the order of 0 to a couple positive degrees of flap, where the
smart German engineers figured you will be flying the vast majority of the
time. So if you're going to be flying in stronger conditions, above MC 3,
you'll notice the difference. Otherwise, they're practically identical.

Regards,
Daniel Sazhin

At 14:05 16 October 2013, wrote:
Good feedback.

So, I'll run this by my CFI-G and some more of my club mates.

Here is where I am now:
Discus 2b
ASW-27
a distant third: SZD 55-1
long shot: DG 303 Elan (this is probably a DQ due to A/D spar issue)

In my research, it has become clear that the Discus is pretty much the
best
standard class you can get.

For the 15m class I like the ASW for some reason, even though the Ventus
2
seems to win many more championships.

I'm open to comments and advice from all, especially if you have flown
any
of these ships. I'm going to make a buy decision in the next week or
so...hopefully.

Thanks for the help!

John,

Thanks for the post. This is really helpful and makes a lot of sense.

On Wednesday, October 16, 2013 8:52:06 AM UTC-6, wrote:
John,



Thanks for the post. This is really helpful and makes a lot of sense.

Go for a flapped ship for all of the reasons you have read....You will not regret it! Good luck!
Renny
(1-26B, Std. Cirrus, Pegasus, 304CZ, Discus 2B, LAK-17B FES) ;-)

At 14:52 16 October 2013, wrote:
John,

Thanks for the post. This is really helpful and makes a lot of sense.



Don't exclude the LS8 you will have to pay dg maintainance tax but its a
good ship and a different cockpit fit,at the end of the day if your not
comfy (spelled wrong ?) then its the ship.So sit in some,most people are
happy to show you their glider if its anything like a british club they
will offer good advise and tell you theirs is the best.

Discus 2b

ASW-27

a distant third: SZD 55-1

long shot: DG 303 Elan (this is probably a DQ due to A/D spar issue)

Your choices are excellent. It is very hard to wrong with the first 2.

I fly a 27 and can tell you that it is an awesome aircraft. No bad habits and goes like stink.

I haven't flown the D2 but the overwelming pilot response to the aircraft has been positive.

Someone mentioned east vs west flying and they may have landed on your most important point. I fly out west where we almost never launch without a full load of water. In these conditions the asw-27 (and sadly the asg-29 I can't afford) becomes an immortal creature of the sky. The D2 also excels at heavy wingloading but will noticably lose out to the ASW-27 when flown in strong conditions.

In weaker conditions the 27 is good but It's much more like "just-any-other-good-airplane" without 42gal of water.

Living out west... 27 or 29 is unbeatable. living east, I might be tempted by a D2 or (the real pilot pleaser), the LS8.

Terry

On Wednesday, October 16, 2013 8:05:02 AM UTC-6, wrote:

So, I'll run this by my CFI-G and some more of my club mates.



Here is where I am now:

Discus 2b

ASW-27

Forget asking your CFIG unless they have time in the ships you mentioned. I would second everything BB said. I fly at a 5000MSL Gliderport with density altitudes around 9K in the summer so TO and Landing speed is scary in a non flapped ship. Further, most pilots end up with a flapped ship anyways so just start with one.

On Wednesday, October 16, 2013 7:05:02 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Good feedback.
Here is where I am now:

Discus 2b

ASW-27

You missed the LAK-17A, with 15M tips I didn't have any trouble staying with (and frequently outrunning) '27s, comes with polyurethane paint which will outlast the gelcoat on most '27s, you can get one for less than the cost of a decent '27, and you'll get a set of 18M tips for free...

From my own experience in over 40 different types of sailplanes, Flaps add very little additional workload. Like driving a manual transmission car, it quickly becomes second nature.

Certainly flaps add to better extreme high speed performance. Climb is a more subjective thing. The more experienced pilot with the best sorted out Glider is usually the best climber. The differences are so small in all the production sailplanes, that I doubt anyone that tells me that one particular model is the best,

As far as your question, I prefer Flaps for 1 reason. Landing. Regardless of where you fly, eventually you will have to land off field. It's my experience that steep slow low energy approaches are the easiest done in a flapped ship. I have never had as much confidence flying XC as I did in my ASW-20C. Flaps, spoilers and a great hydraulic disc brake.

As an ex Seattle area pilot. I would highly suggest as much XC exposure as possible. The Seattle Glider Council program with the DG-1000 is good. Hitch a ride with 1 of the members. You will learn a lot just riding along.

A would also suggest taking the time to commute to Ephrata or Wenatchee http://www.cascadesoaringsociety.com/ in Eastern Washington for your early XC flights. There are very few places in this Country that are as safe for Off field landings as these sites. They offer ability to fly Thermal, Ridge and Wave and land anywhere safely. If you can't make it to an airport, your next choice is at least a section sized field, usually with No obstacles.

Buy FLAPS, Get Training in a 2 Seater and Fly Often.

Good luck and let us know what you do.

Paul
Scottsdale AZ