Standard rate turn in Boeing 757?

"Jim Baker" wrote

Vince...everyone is entitled to their opinion. I've seen that tape
numerous times and I've done and taught several hundred aileron rolls
(23 continuous ones once in a T-38) and barrel rolls. The 707
prototype that day over Lake Seattle did not do an aileron roll, it
was a barrel roll. He dove, he climbed and he did a constant "speed"
roll about a point which is close to the definition of a barrel roll
as I can get without a book in front of me. An aileron roll is a roll
about the longitudinal axis of the aircraft. He did not do a 360 roll
around the longitudinal axis.


Vince has it right. You must have missed last year's "barrel-roll
discussion", a portion of which is quoted from William Kershner's
book "The Flight Instructor's Manual". Do a newsgroup Google search
for barrel roll and you will find the entire debate between "Big John"
and myself.

"How-
You might use the following explanation, or develop your own:
(1) Make sure the area is clear, then pick a reference on
the horizon off the wing tip as in the wingover and lazy eight.
(2) Set the throttle to low cruise rpm and ease the nose over to pick-
up about 10 K more than used for the wingover or set up the
airspeed used for a loop, whichever is higher. Power adjustment
should not be necessary during the maneuver. You might have
some of your sharper trainees apply full power as the airplane
approaches inverted and then remind them to throttle back as the
airspeed picks up in the last part of the maneuver.
(3) Smoothly pull the nose up and start a coordinated climbing turn
(note that it will have to be at a much faster rate than was used
for the wingover) toward the reference point. (Assume that at first
the roll will be to the left.)
(4) When the nose is 45° from the original heading, it should be at its
highest pitch attitude and the left bank should be vertical.
(5) When the nose is at 90° from the original heading, you should be
looking directly at the reference point that was originally off the
wing tipfrom a completely inverted position (momentarily).
(6) When the airplane heading is again 45° from the original, the bank
is vertical but you will be in a right bank as far as the ground is
concerned; that is, the right wing is pointing straight down at this
instant of roll. The nose will be at its lowest pitch attitude at
this point.
(7) The roll is continued to wings-level flight as the nose is raised
back to the cruise attitude."

Note that half-way through the maneuver, the nose of the airplane
is 90 degrees to original heading at the same time that the airplane
is inverted.

Bob Moore

"Bob Moore" wrote in message
. 6...
"Jim Baker" wrote

Vince...everyone is entitled to their opinion. I've seen that tape
numerous times and I've done and taught several hundred aileron
rolls
(23 continuous ones once in a T-38) and barrel rolls. The 707
prototype that day over Lake Seattle did not do an aileron roll, it
was a barrel roll. He dove, he climbed and he did a constant
"speed"
roll about a point which is close to the definition of a barrel roll
as I can get without a book in front of me. An aileron roll is a
roll
about the longitudinal axis of the aircraft. He did not do a 360
roll
around the longitudinal axis.


Vince has it right. You must have missed last year's "barrel-roll
discussion", a portion of which is quoted from William Kershner's
book "The Flight Instructor's Manual". Do a newsgroup Google search
for barrel roll and you will find the entire debate between "Big John"
and myself.

"How-
You might use the following explanation, or develop your own:
(1) Make sure the area is clear, then pick a reference on
the horizon off the wing tip as in the wingover and lazy eight.
(2) Set the throttle to low cruise rpm and ease the nose over to pick-
up about 10 K more than used for the wingover or set up the
airspeed used for a loop, whichever is higher. Power adjustment
should not be necessary during the maneuver. You might have
some of your sharper trainees apply full power as the airplane
approaches inverted and then remind them to throttle back as the
airspeed picks up in the last part of the maneuver.
(3) Smoothly pull the nose up and start a coordinated climbing turn
(note that it will have to be at a much faster rate than was used
for the wingover) toward the reference point. (Assume that at
first
the roll will be to the left.)
(4) When the nose is 45° from the original heading, it should be at
its
highest pitch attitude and the left bank should be vertical.
(5) When the nose is at 90° from the original heading, you should be
looking directly at the reference point that was originally off
the
wing tipfrom a completely inverted position (momentarily).
(6) When the airplane heading is again 45° from the original, the bank
is vertical but you will be in a right bank as far as the ground
is
concerned; that is, the right wing is pointing straight down at
this
instant of roll. The nose will be at its lowest pitch attitude at
this point.
(7) The roll is continued to wings-level flight as the nose is raised
back to the cruise attitude."

Note that half-way through the maneuver, the nose of the airplane
is 90 degrees to original heading at the same time that the airplane
is inverted.

Bob Moore


This is simply the "classic" method of teaching a barrel roll. A barrel
roll is simply a 3 dimensional maneuver, and in fact in air combat
maneuvering, is the ONLY 3 dimensional maneuver through 3 dimensional
space. The roll can be performed as written by you and Kershner here, or
it can be flown much tighter. Any roll that is FLOWN through
3 dimensions while maintaining a positive g on the airplane is a barrel
roll. The "barrel" can also be altered while in the roll by changing the
load on the airplane.In fact, in one offshoot scenario in the ACM arena,
we often began a barrel roll with positive g, then unloaded the airplane
to just below ballistic in the roll. (speeds up the roll rate :-)
Tex's roll was absolutely a barrel roll.

Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

"Jim Baker" wrote in message
...

"vincent p. norris" wrote in message
...
As for what they're capable of, remember Tex Johnson(sp?) barrel
rolled
the 707 prototype (the "Dash-80").

Actually, an aileron roll, Paul. I know his book, ghost written by
another, says barrel roll, but the tape shows it's an aileron roll.

Among non-fliers, all rolls are "barrel rolls," just as all loops
are
"loop-de-loops" and among Southerners, all Northerners are
"Damnyankees."

vince norris

Vince...everyone is entitled to their opinion. I've seen that tape
numerous
times and I've done and taught several hundred aileron rolls (23
continuous
ones once in a T-38) and barrel rolls. The 707 prototype that day
over Lake
Seattle did not do an aileron roll, it was a barrel roll. He dove, he
climbed and he did a constant "speed" roll about a point which is
close to
the definition of a barrel roll as I can get without a book in front
of me.
An aileron roll is a roll about the longitudinal axis of the aircraft.
He
did not do a 360 roll around the longitudinal axis.

Regards,

JB

I almost hate to get into this one again, as the last time was quite
unpleasant! :-)
It was a barrel roll. The -80 needed positive g all the way around for
the oil scavenger pumps. Tex knew this and I discussed it with him many
times through the years. Also, the airplane, regardless of how high the
roll set would have been and regardless of the airspeed at entry for a
pure aileron roll , would not have had the energy available through the
roll axis to complete an aileron roll without split S'ing out the back
side. The result of a pure aileron input would have been a HUGE split S
with serious airspeed problems on the back side!.
Tex did the roll the only way the airplane could have been rolled. He
FLEW it all the way around the barrel, keeping positive g on the
airplane throughout the maneuver for the oil pumps and to avoid the
split s.
Tex flew the prototype through a 3 dimensional roll at positive g , and
that spells barrel roll.
All the best as usual,
Dudley

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
link.net...

"Jim Baker" wrote in message
...

"vincent p. norris" wrote in message
...
As for what they're capable of, remember Tex Johnson(sp?) barrel
rolled
the 707 prototype (the "Dash-80").

Actually, an aileron roll, Paul. I know his book, ghost written by
another, says barrel roll, but the tape shows it's an aileron roll.

Among non-fliers, all rolls are "barrel rolls," just as all loops
are
"loop-de-loops" and among Southerners, all Northerners are
"Damnyankees."

vince norris

Vince...everyone is entitled to their opinion. I've seen that tape
numerous
times and I've done and taught several hundred aileron rolls (23
continuous
ones once in a T-38) and barrel rolls. The 707 prototype that day
over Lake
Seattle did not do an aileron roll, it was a barrel roll. He dove, he
climbed and he did a constant "speed" roll about a point which is
close to
the definition of a barrel roll as I can get without a book in front
of me.
An aileron roll is a roll about the longitudinal axis of the aircraft.
He
did not do a 360 roll around the longitudinal axis.

Regards,

JB

I almost hate to get into this one again, as the last time was quite
unpleasant! :-)
It was a barrel roll. The -80 needed positive g all the way around for
the oil scavenger pumps. Tex knew this and I discussed it with him many
times through the years. Also, the airplane, regardless of how high the
roll set would have been and regardless of the airspeed at entry for a
pure aileron roll , would not have had the energy available through the
roll axis to complete an aileron roll without split S'ing out the back
side. The result of a pure aileron input would have been a HUGE split S
with serious airspeed problems on the back side!.
Tex did the roll the only way the airplane could have been rolled. He
FLEW it all the way around the barrel, keeping positive g on the
airplane throughout the maneuver for the oil pumps and to avoid the
split s.
Tex flew the prototype through a 3 dimensional roll at positive g , and
that spells barrel roll.
All the best as usual,
Dudley

I must have missed last years blood bath, :-))

I don't know how anyone looking at that tape, who has done the manuevers
we're speaking of, could confuse one with the other. As you've said Dudley,
the -80 (which I had the pleasure of seeing up close on Mothers Day weekend)
did not have the roll authority to do an aileron roll. Those little tiny
ailerons couldn't provide enough asymetic energy. Half way through the crew
would have been looking straight down at Lake WASHINGTON (thanks Pete!).
Now maybe that would have been more impressive, but it would've taken one
hell of an altitude to start and the folks on the ground might not have been
able to even see the entry. I've "aileron" rolled a large aircraft (
250,000 lbs) a few times but it didn't depend on ailerons for the manuever.
The B-1B used a split stab for primary roll authority and that was one huge,
split "aileron" that provided enough energy to roll the aircraft without the
Split S and the problems that would bring to a large airframe.

Have a pleasant weekend fellas!!

Stepping off the battlefied,

Jim

According to the Smithsonian it was a barrel roll.

Margy

"vincent p. norris" wrote:

As for what they're capable of, remember Tex Johnson(sp?) barrel rolled
the 707 prototype (the "Dash-80").

Actually, an aileron roll, Paul. I know his book, ghost written by
another, says barrel roll, but the tape shows it's an aileron roll.

Among non-fliers, all rolls are "barrel rolls," just as all loops are
"loop-de-loops" and among Southerners, all Northerners are
"Damnyankees."

vince norris

"Garyurbach" wrote in message
...

I've got someone telling me the Boeing 757 that hit the Pentagon did some
impossible turn before flying into the building, and it sounds like a
turning
descent to me.

That'd be the remote controlled 757, flown by Mossad agents into the
Pentagon in an attempt to discredit Islam, right?

You got it.

I am a former student pilot (lost interest after moving constantly set me
back), and I need help from someone with ATP experience on this one.

Surely a 757 can make a descending turn 270 degrees in 2.5 minutes? Maybe, it's
not what an ATP would do to passengers, but it's not some plane-stressing move?

The move, before the crash, sounded like a spiraling descent, or an emergency
descent.

Any help would be appreciated, even if it's to point me to someone who can give
me the answers.

:-)

Hm....30 bank is new info to me. I always thought it was
a 4 minute turn for the big & fast guys.

Learn something new everyday!

Blanche wrote

Hm....30 bank is new info to me. I always thought it was
a 4 minute turn for the big & fast guys.

Standard Rate is Standard Rate for all aircraft. Three degrees
per second. However, when flying under Instrument Flight Rules
(IFR), and a standard rate turn is specified, aircraft with a
Flight Director/Autopilot installed are permitted to use the
maximum rate of turn commanded by the FD/AP which in the case of
the Boeing a/c that I flew, was about 25 degrees angle of bank
with the flaps up and 30 degrees angle of bank with the flaps
down. During the commencement of an Emergency Descent, the flight
manual called for a bank angle of 45 degrees to aid in getting the
nose down and eliminating negative "g"s.

Bob Moore
ATP B-707 B-727

Emergency Descent, the flight
manual called for a bank angle of 45 degrees to aid in getting the
nose down and eliminating negative "g"s.

Wow. Don't the passengers screaming get on your nerves?

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

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