what would you do?

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...
"Michael 182" wrote in message
news:cwGBc.70661$Hg2.7085@attbi_s04...
What does "report her" mean? Why should the FSDO care what I say when I
"report" a fellow pilot?

They are the ones in charge of enforcing the FARs.

Right, but it is my word against hers. Why should they believe me?


Is there a procedure for this?

Pick up the phone, dial the number, tell them what you saw and heard.

I don't know - I
just don't like the idea that an overly officious fellow pilot would
decide
to "report me" if they were unhappy with my piloting.

Me either. But still, what else are you going to do?

How do you feel about calling the police if someone breaks into your
house?
I mean, you wouldn't want YOUR neighbor calling the police tell them YOU
broke into THEIR house, would you? By your logic, you ought to just
ignore
the guy breaking into your own house.

No, that doesn't follow, Peter. I have no problem reporting (some) crimes to
the police. Her piloting may have been unsafe, but it was not a crime.


[...] I can just picture him "reporting" me, and having
to deal with a FSDO investigation or some such thing.

Had he reported you, I doubt anything of substance would have happened.
In
any case, you can always sue him for slander.

Ugh, litigation - the worst possible result.


Pete

The question of whether you should depends on your own ethics..."Michael"
obviously feels it's none of your concern. I disagree...as I've said before
in similar situations, if you could be sure the only person she'd kill was
herself, then it's an issue between her and her maker. But you can't be
sure of that, can you? She may kill a passenger (or more than one), and she
may kill people not in her airplane.

I had a similar siutation. I solo'd just before moving to Germany so
my radio skills were limited and XC time was zilch. My housemate in
Germany, myself and his pilot friend went up. We flew around southern
Germany and then to Salzburg. From my memory, things the guy did that
was clearly dangerous.

1. was going to take off without a checklist. he accidently found it
while taxiing.

2. I don't recall him doing a full pre-flight.
3. was quite lost going into Salzburg despite a Garmin 430
4. Through in full flaps flying into Salzburg Class C airport with
numerous planes barrelling down our ass. he could have easily thrown
in full flaps after crossing the numbers at 1000 AGL considering it
was a 9000 (?) foot runway.
5. he landed maybe 1 inch past the numbers and then proceeded
to roll down the runway to the FBO 4000 feet past the numbers
rather than landing very long.
6. on departure from Salzburg, couldn't follow basic radio commands,
"contact departure on xxx.xx, squawk YYYY"
7. got lost going back at night until Munich approach (not sure
of the names, BTW) said "Cessna XXXXX, if you are going to Augsburg,
wouldn't you want to turn by now."
8. MUC approach got on his ass for busting the class B (I'm guessing)
airspace.
9. (not in order) on approach into Rosenheim, I was in the back of
the 172 and remember treetops flying by at our height on
both sides so we were very damn low.

that is what I remember. I remember there were more.

Well my housemate and I recently flew from the bay area down to Santa
barbara. He commented that I'm a lot more precise flier with my
115 hours and half way through a IFR ticket than his friend with 250+
hours of VFR. I didn't want to bad mouth his friend until my old
housemate told me they went flying with 2 smallish women over the Alps
at 12000 feet. I wondered what the density altitude was and how
much AGL they were. Apparently there wasn't much. Then my old
housemate, granted he is NOT a pilot, said they had a serious close
call on final back at their home airport in Augsburg due to
language problems. I didn't get into it but it would not surprise
me whatsoever. This guy is simply scary, downright dangerous to
not only himself but his passengers and other airplanes/people.

After I returned to the US while finishing my PPL, I saw something
like that with a Mooney in the pattern. The guy left the pattern but
then returned 20 minutes later. I said to my CFI, "you watch him.
I fly." nevertheless the guy busted into the pattern at a controlled
Class D airport and then came within 200 feet of landing on someone,
then couldn't follow directions to climb to 1200 (pattern is at 800
and SFO Class B at 1500) and circle. I was in no immediate danger
but if he almost landed on me, I'd demand a write up of him.

IMHO, if this person is as bad as you desribe, I'd report them.

Gerald

Michael 182 wrote:

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...

They are the ones in charge of enforcing the FARs.

Right, but it is my word against hers. Why should they believe me?

You forget. This is the FAA. Believing you gives them an opportunity to investigate a
pilot. She is guilty until proven innocent.

George Patterson
None of us is as dumb as all of us.

"Michael 182" wrote in message
news:KjLBc.69040$2i5.6820@attbi_s52...
Right, but it is my word against hers. Why should they believe me?

It's highly unlikely that a single report would cause anything to happen.
But if the FSDO hears from several people about the same person, there's
probably something to that. You can be assured that the FSDO isn't going to
base their entire case on your word. However, your word may be just what
they need to take a closer look at a pilot who needs a closer look.

How do you feel about calling the police if someone breaks into your
house?
I mean, you wouldn't want YOUR neighbor calling the police tell them YOU
broke into THEIR house, would you? By your logic, you ought to just
ignore
the guy breaking into your own house.

No, that doesn't follow, Peter. I have no problem reporting (some) crimes
to
the police. Her piloting may have been unsafe, but it was not a crime.

Of course it follows. The behavior not being a crime is irrelevant, and in
any case it may well be a crime (ever heard of "reckless endangerment"?).

The point is that you are saying that because you wouldn't want someone to
falsely report you of doing something, that you wouldn't want to truthfully
report someone else of doing the same thing. That attitude makes no sense,
and it really doesn't matter whether the "thing" being done has been
labelled as "illegal" or simply "against the regulations".

Had he reported you, I doubt anything of substance would have happened.
In
any case, you can always sue him for slander.

Ugh, litigation - the worst possible result.

So don't sue. I was just pointing out that it's not like a falsely accused
person doesn't have recourse. We're not really talking about you being
reported. We're talking about someone else being reported, and a person who
has actually done something worth reporting at that.

Pete

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...


Michael 182 wrote:

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...

They are the ones in charge of enforcing the FARs.

Right, but it is my word against hers. Why should they believe me?

You forget. This is the FAA. Believing you gives them an opportunity to
investigate a
pilot. She is guilty until proven innocent.

Yeah, that's kind of what I'm worried about...


George Patterson
None of us is as dumb as all of us.

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 18:59:20 -0700, "Peter Duniho"
wrote:

We're not really talking about you being
reported. We're talking about someone else being reported, and a person who
has actually done something worth reporting at that.


It shouldn't matter Who is being reported. How do you know this
person has done something worth reporting? Because of a post on the
internet? I've read the thread and have seen some people point out
imperfections in the procedures used by the original poster as well as
a very colorful story about what seems to be a pilot still in need of
some education. However I certainly did not learn a sufficient number
of facts on the "alleged incident" (for the lawyers out there) to
state anyone should be reported for possible legal action.

I really am amazed at how quickly this group seems to hang people and
almost unanimously declare that someone should be referred to the
authorities when all they really have to go by is one persons opinion.

It's almost as if no one here has ever made a mistake, and that they
are as close to perfect pilots as anyone can be.

My 2 cents.
z

First of all, what would you report her for? I am having difficulty finding
an actual FAR violation here, though it appears that everyone, including
yourself, was flying some sort of non-standard pattern. Being rude is not a
crime (otherwise most of us here would have been locked up long ago).

Secondly, if your radio conversation was broadcast over the loudspeakers for
1000 people to hear, the FAA already heard it.

Third, if your friend is a CFI who has been working with this pilot, then
your friend is probably in the best position to recommend that this pilot
take a competency check.

Last of all, I have heard this kind of stuff at every fly-in I have gone to.

"zatatime" wrote in message
...
It shouldn't matter Who is being reported. How do you know this
person has done something worth reporting? Because of a post on the
internet?

No one is proposing reporting a pilot solely on the basis of what they've
read on this newsgroup. The only person to whom it's being suggested that
the pilot be reported is the person who actually observed the actions.

If that person cannot make a final determination as to whether to report the
person, who can? All we are saying is that if the events transpired as
described, that's a reportable offense. Nothing more, nothing less.

It's almost as if no one here has ever made a mistake, and that they
are as close to perfect pilots as anyone can be.

I have no idea where you got that impression. Perhaps you could quote some
posts that led you to it. It sure seems like you pulled that conclusion out
of your ass, given the utter lack of supporting statements within this
thread to justify it.

Pete

Ok... suppose YOU were the FAA... and the incident occured exactly the way it
was portrayed in the original post, and it was reported to the FAA (you).

What would you (were you the FAA) do?

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

perhaps that CFI should not sign off her next BFR... if she flies like this
and does not listen and learn... then I would not want my name to be the
last endorsement in her logbook.. maybe he should warn his friends also..

BT

"gatt" wrote in message
...

Report her. She might not deserve the favor, and she might not appreciate
it, but it might be the best thing you could do for her, any passengers
she
might carry, and the safety of GA as a whole.

-c

"tony roberts" wrote in message
news:nospam-7E8DDE.22231620062004@shawnews...
I have to make a decision that could have a big impact on a fellow pilot
and I would appreciate knowing what you would do in my situation - Here
are the basic facts:
Today I, along with a pilot passenger (witness) went to a fly-in - lots
of planes arriving in short time frame.
Active runway was 14, lh downwind, circuit height 3000 ft.
We called 5 miles out (procedure) and received a response from another
pilot "Joining 17 in 2 minutes".
I responded, "are you arriving xxx airport - there is no 17"
Response - "sorry I meant 35".
I reply, there is no 35 - the runways are 14 and 32. 14 is active,
downwind is lh, circuit is 3000 ft.
Response - circling over 35 losing altitude.
Me - I am approaching threshold of 32 at 3000ft to join downwind left
14. There is no 35 and you should not be descending over the runway.
Response - I am at 5500 descending for 35.
Me - I repeat this airport is 14 and 32 - circuit height is 3000 ft. We
are about to cross midfield to join downwind left 14.
Response - Sorry I meant 32 - I am on downwind left 32.
(32 if it was active - is downwind right)
Me - You are on head on collision course with me- I am in immediate
emergency descent and crossing to midfield (no choice - mountains in
other direction)
Response - Well - I'm trying to land here! Huh?
Me - XXX Radio - are you guys listening to this? I could really use your
help here right now (I admit - I got VERY rattled)
XXX Radio - Errr aircraft xxx active is downwind left 14.
So I land.
And then this plane comes in and bounces nose wheel to mains - 4 or 5
times.
So I'm out of the plane and I meet a friend who arrived before me. And
that was when I found out that our radio calls had been broadcast via
loudspeakers to over 1000 spectators.
And my friend said, "I am really embarrassed about this, because I have
been trying to help this pilot (who has a PPL and over 100 hours) but
she is totally clueless.
So the pilot now taxis next to my friends aircraft , taxis into the
grass/soft dirt - gets stuck trying to turn, applys FULL power and
sprays the side of my friends aircraft with dirt & stones - and keeps
doing it - because she is so clueless she doesn't know what she is
doing.
Moving forward - I watched her depart.
Radio at taxiway - Aircraft calling on final - which airport are you
landing at - I kid you not.
Aircraft on final - 14 XXX
He lands.
Another aircraft calls final 14 xxx
Response - Aircraft on final - which airport are you landing at?
Aircraft on final - 14 XXX
And yet another aircraft calls final.
"Listen - I'm waiting to take off here"
He lands.
She has about 8 aircraft behind her.
Now she does her runup.
Her call - XXX taking off. (No runway - just taking off).
Of the approx 500 aircraft that took off here today, this was the ONLY
one that didn't backtrack.
With nosewheel up way to soon for density altitude she took off, stall
horn wailing as she skimmed the trees and departed for home.
Would you report her - or would you forget it?
I'm having a hard time thinking of reporting her,
I'll have a harder time if I do nothing and she crashes next week.
What would you do?
Thanks
Tony

--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Almost Instrument
Cessna 172H C-GICE