Squawk Sheets

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On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 10:36:06 -0700, DanH
wrote:

snip

I check out a 172 from the club, but the landing light is burned out.
I'm flying "not for hire", VFR around a class G airport, so no
requirements for radios, transponder, or landing light (day or night).
The landing light switch has not been labeled, just a note in the squawk
sheet behind the tach sheets, or maybe not even squawked, perhaps I
found the problem during pre-flight.

Can I still legally fly this plane? It meets all the requirements for
day and night VFR if the landing light was not installed at all. But do
I have to have the equipment pulled or disabled to fly? What would the
owner (e.g. a flying club) need to do to allow this bird to fly in this
condition? (obviously repair the burned out bulb, but other than that).

§ 91.213 Inoperative instruments and equipment.

MEL stuff snipped, to the best of my knowledge, there is not a MMEL
for a 172


Hi TC...

I double checked with the owner of my flight school and he confirms that
they are using FAA approved MELs for their C172s...

Just following up...not wanting to stir the pot.

Jay

"Jay Beckman" wrote

I double checked with the owner of my flight school and he confirms
that
they are using FAA approved MELs for their C172s...

Jay, there's just a good chance that the owner is just as confused
about the Aircraft Flight Manual Equipment List and a true Minimum
Equipment List as many of this group's members were.

Locate a copy of this C-172 MEL and scan the paragraphs pertaining
to FAA approval, then post it here.

I WILL belive it when I see it. As another poster has written, of
what value is an MEL for a Cessna 172?

I am copying below a post that I made on the subject some time back.
It contains references to what an MEL is and under what circumstances
it is issued.
Note that there are no MMELs for single-engine, non-turbine aircraft
published by the FAA.

Bob Moore

Mis-use of terminology strikes again! None of you guys have
seen an MEL for a single engine Mooney. The list of equipment
contained in small aircraft AFMs is not an MEL, but just an
"Installed Equipment List". I would suggest reading the
following web page for information on MMELs (Master Minimum
Equipment Lists) published for types of aircraft and MELs
approved for specific (N number) aircraft. An MEL must be
developed by the operator and approved by the FAA.

http://www1.faa.gov/avr/afs/customer/mmel.pdf

There are some small twin engined aircraft that do have a
published MMEL and these can be found at the following site.

http://www.opspecs.com/AFSDATA/MMELs/Final/smallac/

And......from the following excellent web page:


http://www.aero.und.edu/inet/avit325...douts/MEL.html
__________________________________________________ _____
What is a Minimum Equipment List?

A Minimum Equipment List (MEL) is a Supplemental Type
Certificate issued by the FAA which allows a specific
aircraft to continue operating in an airworthy condition,
although certain required instruments or items of the
equipment are inoperative.
A MEL is a document that lists the instruments and equipment
that may be inoperative without jeopardizing the safety of the
aircraft.
The MEL includes procedures for flight crews and/or maintenance
crews to follow when securing or deactivating inoperative
instruments or equipment.

What is a Master Minimum Equipment List?

A Master Minimum Equipment List (MMEL) is the standard list of
items and procedures for a standard aircraft make and model.

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 11:22:16 -0700, "Jay Beckman"
wrote:

snip

Hi TC...

I double checked with the owner of my flight school and he confirms that
they are using FAA approved MELs for their C172s...

Just following up...not wanting to stir the pot.

Hey Jay;

I appreciate the response. Not sure if you saw my reply to your
earlier post, or whether I had made myself clear.

When you first mentioned that MEL/141 school, I was fairly certain
that you knew what you were talking (typing?) about.

It only makes sense in a commercial situation to have such procedures
in place, clearly defining whether or not a "busted" airplane can
still fly.

My experiences with MEL's and MMEL's are primarily from the Pt 135
standpoint, another commercial situation where keeping the birds in
the air (and generating income) is important.

As I indicated in the earlier response, initially MEL's were written
by the operator from a generic template, and individually approved by
the FAA. This procedure can still be used-that would be where the MEL
you use originated.

In the early 80's, the FAA decided that the best way to ensure
uniformity between operators/aircraft would be to use a Master MEL for
various aircraft types. The MMEL is somewhat model-specific, but is
still essentially just a template. Varying equipment installations and
other variances from airplane-to-airplane require the MMEL be modified
to suit and still need to be individually approved/authorized.

If a MMEL exists for a specific type of aircraft, you can bet your
butt that the Feds will want to use it as the starting point for your
MEL.

I apologize if I confused you with my original post. I never meant to
infer that a MEL could not be used with a Cessna single, just that it
would not be a common situation for the typical pilot renting from the
typical FBO.

TC

"DanH" wrote in message
...

I check out a 172 from the club, but the landing light is burned out.
I'm flying "not for hire", VFR around a class G airport, so no
requirements for radios, transponder, or landing light (day or night).
The landing light switch has not been labeled, just a note in the squawk
sheet behind the tach sheets, or maybe not even squawked, perhaps I
found the problem during pre-flight.

Can I still legally fly this plane? It meets all the requirements for
day and night VFR if the landing light was not installed at all. But do
I have to have the equipment pulled or disabled to fly? What would the
owner (e.g. a flying club) need to do to allow this bird to fly in this
condition? (obviously repair the burned out bulb, but other than that).

The thread has veered off into arguments about MELs. If no MEL or MMEL, my
understanding purely from reading the regs is that you do indeed have to
mark the light inop and deactivate it. The day I took my Private checkride,
my school at the time finally replaced the landing light that had been burnt
out for a month. However, I was ready to show the DE that I could legally
stick a post-it on the switch and pull the breaker. I would have been wrong;
I should also have had it checked out by a PP or mechanic (91.213(d)(4)).

-- David Brooks

That's how it works in the airline industry. I can only assume the
flight school squawk sheets are essentially the same as a tech log.

I'm not sure the airline industry is a good reference point. There
are no regulations guiding the renting of aircraft. If I had a C172,
I could rent it out and the FAA wouldn't care. I don't need to have a
squawk sheet at all.

Thanks

Are you sure about that? I'd have a deep trawl through the FARs before I
was comfortable doing that.

Shawn
"Greg Esres" wrote in message
...
That's how it works in the airline industry. I can only assume the
flight school squawk sheets are essentially the same as a tech log.

I'm not sure the airline industry is a good reference point. There
are no regulations guiding the renting of aircraft. If I had a C172,
I could rent it out and the FAA wouldn't care. I don't need to have a
squawk sheet at all.

Thanks

"Greg Esres" wrote in message
...
I'm curious as to the legal status of the squawk sheets for airplanes
at flight schools or FBOs. There has been some discussion as to who
is "legal" to sign off on a return to service after a renter has
written a squawk. Some mechanics say instructors can do so.

My suspicion is that squawk sheets have no legal standing at all, and
any pilot can choose to fly a squawked airplane if he believes it
legal and safe to fly.

Anyone have information regarding this?


When I was working as an A&P for a flight school, that school gained Part
141 certification. Our squawk book was one item the FAA examined. They
made us change from using a three-ring binder, where anyone could remove a
page with squawks, to a record that would show if an item had been removed.
I can't tell you if this is something peculiar to the Ft Lauderdale FSDO,
Part 141 schools, or a matter of bureaucrat's preference.

The FAA wanted us to have all customer/student write-ups entered in some
sort of official record rather than the customary scrap of paper thrown at
the A&P. Once the squawk was made our FAA guy wanted some sort of
evaluation by company employee noted. For example a CFI or I should note in
the record if the squawk couldn't be duplicated, was due to customer
misunderstanding or incorrect operation, or if item was scheduled for
maintenance and any limitations to be observed. This seems more like a Part
141 or sacrifice to the FSDO idol than regulatory requirement.

--
Scott

This seems more like a Part 141 or sacrifice to the FSDO idol than
regulatory requirement.

That makes more sense to me. I think that Part 141 does have some
requirements that apply to this.

Thanks