Pre-buy Inspection

Jon Kraus wrote in message . ..
My new partner and I are looking at a 1975 Mooney M20C. It is a nicely
upgraded IFR plane with a 400 hour O-360 engine. It is a rather high
time airplane (7000) hours and the price reflects this fact. It is being
sold by the owner of the FBO we fly out of for one of his friends. They
just finished up an annual inspection on it.

A Mooney is a pretty hard plane to get a good pre-buy on. You really
need to go to a Mooney specialty place. There are great hidden places
underneath where fatal rust can hide from all but the good specialist.
You also need the tank sealant inspected. Some leaking is normal but
you are concerned with the condition of the sealant. A reseal will
cost around $9000. You are looking for pealing and flaking of the
sealant. Pin holes are normal. A good AD search should be done on the
gear actuator. The AD is VERY complicated in that some actuators are
covered and others not. Sometimes the inside is the same. You at least
want to be sure the actuators are lubed really good. Very few A&Ps
know how to do that. You need to "exercise" the gear in a special way
to allow the grease to work in. The donuts should also be checked.
They are your only suspension. When they wear out you will start
leaking fuel from the tanks pretty quick because it causes the tank to
flex on landing when they are worn out. You also need to have the
preload checked on all the gear. There is a special tool to do that. 1
in 2 A&Ps don't know how to use it (I went to a Mooney maintenance
semenar where several A&Ps who had been working on Mooneys had to be
shown how to use it).

Don't let this run you off. There really aren't many planes out there
as great as a Mooney. I should know, I have one myself.
-Robert

Truthfully, a good pre-buy is actually an annual inspection. I would
worry about a $500 pre-buy. Unless you truly tear into the aircraft,
you don't know what you're getting into. If it's at all close by,
perhaps you could work out a deal to somehow pro-rate the annual
inspection, and just get it done. That way, you will at least have the
peace of mind to know exactly the shape the aircraft is in.

As an aside, I am quite drunk right now. :-) It's fun to hang out at
home, drink beers, and just relax.

Lynne

Jon Kraus wrote in message . ..
My new partner and I are looking at a 1975 Mooney M20C. It is a nicely
upgraded IFR plane with a 400 hour O-360 engine. It is a rather high
time airplane (7000) hours and the price reflects this fact. It is being
sold by the owner of the FBO we fly out of for one of his friends. They
just finished up an annual inspection on it.

My IFR instructor has owned Mooneys in the past and even had the M20C
for years. He suggested that we fly the plane to Byerly Aviation in
Peoria IL (a little over an hour flight from Indianapolis) and have them
do the pre-buy. He said it would probably cost in the $500.00 range. My
partner and I think it is a good idea too. We are both buying our first
plane and think the money would be well spent.

One of the cylinders has a compression of 62 while the others are in the
70's. This concerns me even though it is within tolerances. Of course we
would hate to buy something that needed immediate major engine work. The
plane has not flown much for the past 2 years so I am wondering if after
flying the thing a while if the compression might come back some
(probably wishful thinking I know).

I am interested in opinions or experiences in first plane purchases.
Experience with Byerly Aviation. Or comments on the engine situation I
described. Thanks!!

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Student aircraft purchaser

When you sober up and read the posts you would discover that the plane
has just come out of an annual. JK

Lynne Miller wrote:

Truthfully, a good pre-buy is actually an annual inspection. I would
worry about a $500 pre-buy. Unless you truly tear into the aircraft,
you don't know what you're getting into. If it's at all close by,
perhaps you could work out a deal to somehow pro-rate the annual
inspection, and just get it done. That way, you will at least have the
peace of mind to know exactly the shape the aircraft is in.

As an aside, I am quite drunk right now. :-) It's fun to hang out at
home, drink beers, and just relax.

Lynne

Jon Kraus wrote in message . ..

My new partner and I are looking at a 1975 Mooney M20C. It is a nicely
upgraded IFR plane with a 400 hour O-360 engine. It is a rather high
time airplane (7000) hours and the price reflects this fact. It is being
sold by the owner of the FBO we fly out of for one of his friends. They
just finished up an annual inspection on it.

My IFR instructor has owned Mooneys in the past and even had the M20C
for years. He suggested that we fly the plane to Byerly Aviation in
Peoria IL (a little over an hour flight from Indianapolis) and have them
do the pre-buy. He said it would probably cost in the $500.00 range. My
partner and I think it is a good idea too. We are both buying our first
plane and think the money would be well spent.

One of the cylinders has a compression of 62 while the others are in the
70's. This concerns me even though it is within tolerances. Of course we
would hate to buy something that needed immediate major engine work. The
plane has not flown much for the past 2 years so I am wondering if after
flying the thing a while if the compression might come back some
(probably wishful thinking I know).

I am interested in opinions or experiences in first plane purchases.
Experience with Byerly Aviation. Or comments on the engine situation I
described. Thanks!!

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Student aircraft purchaser

"Jon Kraus" wrote in message
...
When you sober up and read the posts you would discover that the plane
has just come out of an annual. JK

IMHO, an annual inspection done (paid for) by the seller is worthless with
respect to pre-buy inspection.

I base this on personal experience, having bought a plane that had just had
an annual inspection done, and yet which still had significant problems,
including safety issues.

When buying an airplane, you *cannot* delegate ANY inspection of the
aircraft to the seller or anyone hired by the seller. The only way to know
for sure the condition of the airplane is to inspect it yourself or have
someone working for you inspect it. If you decide that an inspection the
depth of an annual inspection is warranted, then so be it...even if the
airplane has just had an annual inspection by someone else, you'll have to
pay someone to do it all over again.

The fact that the plane in question here has just come out of its annual
inspection is meaningless to the buyer.

Pete

I agree with you 100%. Matter of fact the seller just informed my FBO
that he will not allow the plane to inspected by Byerly Aviation who is
a well respected Mooney shop. I think we are going to pass on this one.

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Student airplane purchaser

Peter Duniho wrote:
"Jon Kraus" wrote in message
...

When you sober up and read the posts you would discover that the plane
has just come out of an annual. JK


IMHO, an annual inspection done (paid for) by the seller is worthless with
respect to pre-buy inspection.

I base this on personal experience, having bought a plane that had just had
an annual inspection done, and yet which still had significant problems,
including safety issues.

When buying an airplane, you *cannot* delegate ANY inspection of the
aircraft to the seller or anyone hired by the seller. The only way to know
for sure the condition of the airplane is to inspect it yourself or have
someone working for you inspect it. If you decide that an inspection the
depth of an annual inspection is warranted, then so be it...even if the
airplane has just had an annual inspection by someone else, you'll have to
pay someone to do it all over again.

The fact that the plane in question here has just come out of its annual
inspection is meaningless to the buyer.

Pete

In article , Jon Kraus
wrote:

I agree with you 100%. Matter of fact the seller just informed my FBO
that he will not allow the plane to inspected by Byerly Aviation who is
a well respected Mooney shop. I think we are going to pass on this one.

something to consider: The seller might not like the shop because
of a bad experience. I know one A&P that I won't let touch my
airplane ever again (but he's not in the IL area).

--
Bob Noel
Seen on Kerry's campaign airplane: "the real deal"
oh yeah baby.

Jon Kraus wrote:

When you sober up and read the posts you would discover that the plane
has just come out of an annual.

You still want to have an inspection performed to the standards of an annual
inspection by a mechanic you trust. Sellers have been known to obtain a
"pencil-whipped" annual when they know they intend to sell the plane in the near
future.

George Patterson
If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
he gives it to.

Maybe you should only post when sober then... The original post states
"They just finished up an annual inspection on it." :-)


Lynne Miller wrote:

Truthfully, a good pre-buy is actually an annual inspection. I would
worry about a $500 pre-buy. Unless you truly tear into the aircraft,
you don't know what you're getting into. If it's at all close by,
perhaps you could work out a deal to somehow pro-rate the annual
inspection, and just get it done. That way, you will at least have the
peace of mind to know exactly the shape the aircraft is in.

As an aside, I am quite drunk right now. :-) It's fun to hang out at
home, drink beers, and just relax.

Lynne

Jon Kraus wrote in message . ..

My new partner and I are looking at a 1975 Mooney M20C. It is a nicely
upgraded IFR plane with a 400 hour O-360 engine. It is a rather high
time airplane (7000) hours and the price reflects this fact. It is being
sold by the owner of the FBO we fly out of for one of his friends. They
just finished up an annual inspection on it.

My IFR instructor has owned Mooneys in the past and even had the M20C
for years. He suggested that we fly the plane to Byerly Aviation in
Peoria IL (a little over an hour flight from Indianapolis) and have them
do the pre-buy. He said it would probably cost in the $500.00 range. My
partner and I think it is a good idea too. We are both buying our first
plane and think the money would be well spent.

One of the cylinders has a compression of 62 while the others are in the
70's. This concerns me even though it is within tolerances. Of course we
would hate to buy something that needed immediate major engine work. The
plane has not flown much for the past 2 years so I am wondering if after
flying the thing a while if the compression might come back some
(probably wishful thinking I know).

I am interested in opinions or experiences in first plane purchases.
Experience with Byerly Aviation. Or comments on the engine situation I
described. Thanks!!

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Student aircraft purchaser

Lynne Miller wrote:

Truthfully, a good pre-buy is actually an annual inspection. I would
worry about a $500 pre-buy.

I wouldn't. My last annual inspection cost less than $500.

George Patterson
If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
he gives it to.

That's about the furthest thing from the truth I've ever seen in these
newsgroups. A prebuy is a DOZEN times harder than an annual inspection. All an
annual inspection tells you is that nothing on the airplane is worn past service
limits at the time of the inspection.

An annual doesn't tell you that the oil hasn't been changed for two hundred
hours. It doesn't tell you that the tires are down to within a hundredth of an
inch of wear limits. It doesn't tell you that the brakes have less than 10%
service life. It doesn't tell you that the battery has about two tugs left in
it before pooping out completely. Shall I go on?

I don't do prebuys for two reasons. One is that a good prebuy takes me the
better part of 25 hours to do, and I can't charge that kind of money to somebody
who may or may not be the owner of that airplane someday. Two is that I can
actually miss something, by simple oversight or by opinion, that the new owner
will rip me a new one when they have to have that item repaired or replaced.

It just ain't worth it. And I sure as HELL wouldn't consider doing one for
somebody with Kraus' attitude.

Jim



(Lynne Miller)
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

-Truthfully, a good pre-buy is actually an annual inspection.


Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com