Renting an airplane? Need Expert FARS Advice??

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
om...
I assume you would be the one renting the plane, otherwise...
1) How is she going to get an FBO to rent an airplane to her without a
current BFR?

She has been renting form that FBO for some time now and next week is going
to be going up with an instructor to take her BFR



2) The FBO likely had her sign something stating that only a
"authorized pilot" can fly the plane (she can't lone it to friends).

That is why they are going to require me to have a check out with them in
the aircraft and listed as a renter.



The FAA has violated people on several occasions for being able to fly
for free as a private pilot. The classic examples are tow pilots
(although an exemption is now available through the glider pilot's
association), jump pilots, etc. The FAA has said, in these situations,
that your ability to fly for free is compensation. The best bet may be
to call the Sac FSDO, ask their opinion, write down the name of the
person you talked to and then don't fly outside their district. You
are in a grey area here.

-Robert, CFI


I will call the Sac FSDO in the morning.



"NW_PILOT" wrote in message
...
Ok, Fellow Pilots Here Is The Situation:

"A Private Pilot wants to rent an airplane and this person wants to fly
it
from the west coast to the east coast but not back. This person would
like
you to come along for the trip and dose not want to be reimbursed for
any
part of the rental for time I act as PIC during the trip. This person
also
is willing to pay for the aircraft rental for how ever many hours it
takes
to get the airplane back home. This person would not be paying anyone
for
acting as PIC just for the airplane rental! Would this be legal for a
private pilot to do? or would one have to pay your equal share on the
way
there and all expenses on the way back home? or just pass on the trip"

This is the proposal that I have been offered from a good friend that
lives
in Northern California that is moving even further away because of a Job
on
the east coast. She thought since we hardly see each other anymore as it
is
and she is moving even further away that this would be a trip that we
both
would remember for lifetime. She has already discussed rental
arrangements
of an aircraft with the FBO they said as long as they get a deposit for
estimated flight hours and I get a check out in the aircraft and listed
as a
renter it would not be a problem. She even offered to pay for my check
out
with the FBO and my renters insurance to meet fbo requirements. I will
have
to pay for fuel on the way home but the FBO will reimburse me upon
return.
Expense to her is not really no factor this would be a really fun trip
see
spec's below.

Spec's:

Female
24 Years Old
5' 6"
115 to 120 lb's
Brown/Red Hair
A Strong 34 C
She is not current and taking her BFR next week

My little head is telling me to go for it, but my big head is saying
stop
wait (must be my old age) get some advice from the people that know more
than the FBO on the FARS and legal aspects before making a decision. I
really would like to go the hotel stays would even be fun. What would
you
do?


Ohhh.
No need for anyone to tell me that I have bad spelling and punctuation I
know I do!

"zatatime" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 03:14:44 -0700, "NW_PILOT"
wrote:


Listen to your little head! Listen to your little head! Don't worry
about the FARs.

No way that always gets me introuble.

Losing your license for 30 days would be a small
price to pay if its really gonna be that good a trip! g Besides if
you explain this to any male inspector, I'll bet he turns green with
envy, pats you on the back, and keeps it for back room discussions
only.


Its been almost 3 weeks since I have flown because of dental problems and
its been killing me. No way could I go 30 day's being told by someone else I
cannot fly.


Seriously, it wouldn't seem to me that you are agreegiously breaking
the law. What if you bought a hotel room, or food, or something? All
of this should be counted toward expenses. As someone else stated,
call AOPA for the best response.

Ill call the fsdo and aopa see what they have to say


Good Luck!
z

Female
24 Years Old
5' 6"
115 to 120 lb's
Brown/Red Hair
A Strong 34 C

I'll fly her for you!

Is she rated for aerobatics?

How much ground roll does she require for takeoff?

Hope this helps,
Peter

"NW_PILOT" wrote in message
...

"Neil Gould" wrote in message
ink.net...
Sounds to me that you're missing your best opportunity by not marrying
the
girl! ;-)

Sorry I cannot do that I am already married,

What?!

Then you should volunteer one of us for the job.

Paul

zatatime wrote in message . ..
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 03:14:44 -0700, "NW_PILOT"
wrote:

As someone else stated,
call AOPA for the best response.

The only problem with AOPA in situations like this is that they are
going to give you the opinion of the FSDO up there. These types of
situations are always very different from FSDO to FSDO, since there is
no federal guidance. Case in point, there is a guy at our flying club
who holds a private ticket and started a company to sell airborne
photos of businesses. The Sac FSDO told him he's ok to fly for his
company with a private. The FSDO in the bay said no. So he's ok as
long as he doesn't get too close to the bay. Since its the local FSDO
that does the enforcement, its best to talk to them. They tend to not
like hearing, "But AOPA told me I could do it...".

-Robert

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 16:54:57 -0700, "NW_PILOT"
wrote:


I will call the Sac FSDO in the morning.

Probably the smartest move.

That having been said, I would suggest they'll say something like
this:

61.113 says "(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of
this section, no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act
as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or
property for compensation or hire; nor may that person, for
compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft."

You're not carrying passengers, and there's nothing stopping someone
from paying 100% of the rental (rather than pro-rating) if both of you
are in the aircraft, which gets you from the west coast to the east
coast.

However, if the pilot who is paying is not in the aircraft, like on
the return leg, yet pays for the rental, they're effectively paying
for you to ferry the aircraft back to the airport of origin, which
would be prohibited.

"Paul Sengupta" wrote in message

Couldn't you pay your share for the way back and come to some
other arrangement on how she pays you back?

Damn. Was drinking coffee when I read that. :

-c

"Neil Gould" wrote in message link.net...
Recently, NW_PILOT posted:

Ok, Fellow Pilots Here Is The Situation:

"A Private Pilot wants to rent an airplane and this person wants to
fly it from the west coast to the east coast but not back."

Sounds to me that you're missing your best opportunity by not marrying the
girl! ;-)

It also doesn't sound like a violation of the FARs, unless you consider
the cost of the return trip as being paid to ferry the plane. But, that's
a stretch, IMO, because there isn't any rule saying that you *must* pay to
fly; just that you can't _get paid_ to fly as a private pilot. I wouldn't
expect that you'd hear a peep from the FSDO.

Well, I can't claim to have memorized the FARs, but I'm pretty sure
that marriage isn't a violation.

But, I'm also pretty sure that flying for free is considered
compensation:

61.117 Private pilot privileges and limitations: Second in command
of aircraft requiring more than one pilot.

Except as provided in §61.113 of this part, no private pilot may, for
compensation or hire, act as second in command of an aircraft that is
type certificated for more than one pilot, nor may that pilot act as
second in command of such an aircraft that is carrying passengers or
property for compensation or hire.

and:

61.113 (c) A private pilot may not pay less than the pro rata share of
the operating expenses of a flight with passengers, provided the
expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees.

Seems that flying back to the west coast would be compensation and
less than your pro-rata share of the flight. Since you're flying
alone then, your pro-rate share is 100%.

-Malcolm Teas

On 23 Sep 2004 13:13:51 -0700, (Malcolm Teas) wrote:


61.117 Private pilot privileges and limitations: Second in command
of aircraft requiring more than one pilot.

Except as provided in §61.113 of this part, no private pilot may, for
compensation or hire, act as second in command of an aircraft that is
type certificated for more than one pilot, nor may that pilot act as
second in command of such an aircraft that is carrying passengers or
property for compensation or hire.

Not that I disagree with the position that he'd be in violation of the
FAR's by flying the aircraft back alone without paying for it, might I
ask what the bit about second in command of a type-certified for
multi-pilot aircraft has to do with the OP's question?

Malcolm Teas wrote:

61.117 Private pilot privileges and limitations: Second in command
of aircraft requiring more than one pilot.

Except as provided in §61.113 of this part, no private pilot may, for
compensation or hire, act as second in command of an aircraft that is
type certificated for more than one pilot, nor may that pilot act as
second in command of such an aircraft that is carrying passengers or
property for compensation or hire.

Few small planes are type certified to require more than one pilot, so it's highly
unlikely that he would be serving as second in command of such a plane. As described,
the flight is not carrying anything for hire, so he wouldn't be doing that either.
This FAR is not applicable to the flight.

61.113 (c) A private pilot may not pay less than the pro rata share of
the operating expenses of a flight with passengers, provided the
expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees.

Seems that flying back to the west coast would be compensation and
less than your pro-rata share of the flight. Since you're flying
alone then, your pro-rate share is 100%.

Since he's flying alone, there are no passengers, so this FAR doesn't apply either.

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.