TSA - another indignity for permanent residents

One Nation Under Surveillance, Loosing All Our Liberty's and No Real Justice
For Anyone Unless Your A Politician!


"Peter MacPherson" wrote in message
news:lvm4d.234760$Fg5.18644@attbi_s53...
How long do you think before all pilots wind up on some
"watch list". Maybe we already are....


"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
...
Did you notice that in the local news coverage of the Oregon attorney
who
was incorrectly tabbed as a terrorist in the Spanish train bombing, it
was
stated that he had taken flight lessons? Oh, the horror!!!

Bob Gardner

"David Brooks" wrote in message
...
"Peter MacPherson" wrote in message
news:Zwl4d.26699$wV.2744@attbi_s54...
I have a question....

Since this is for "training", "alien" CFI's are exempt since we're
doing
the
training? I'm an "alien" CFI and if I understand this, I don't have to
send
anything to the TSA for myself, just fellow aliens that are seeking
training.
BUT, if I were to seek additional training, I would have to send the
TSA
the required doc. Or when I need a BFR(which is training), I would
need
to comply with this nonsense. I called AOPA with this question and
they
don't have an answer yet.

My reply from Ian Twombly at AOPA says they understand flight review
and
instrument refresher are included, although they don't fit the model of
"applying for a course of training". By "refresher" I think he referred
to
my question about "three and a hold", not just IPC.

Actually, the whole model adopted by the rule is that you go to a
school,
apply for training, finish it, and you're done. I think of myself as a
customer of the flight school who must happens to be taking lessons
towards
my Commercial, with occasional too-long layoffs, and with the
occasional
FR
or instrument refresher thrown in.

The $130 doesn't include the estimated $75 cost of fingerprinting.

The TSA has foiled the terrorists once again!! All those terrorists
that
are about to start their IFR training will now be captured by the
TSA!!
And here I thought this agency were just a bunch of nitwits.....
- )



"David Brooks" wrote in message
...
I've lived in this country for many years, paid my taxes, been a
schoolteacher and a Scout leader, and now this:


http://dms.dot.gov/search/searchResu...hTy pe=docket.
The restrictions recently placed on 12500 training is being
extended
to
all
aircraft. TSA claims that Congress mandated it, and maybe we were
all
asleep
when that happened. The rule is already in effect; the documentation
and
security training requirements kick in Oct 20.

Faced with the requirement to send the TSA all the identifying
information,
finding someone to fingerprint me and figuring out how to get the
prints
filed, and paying $130 for the privilege - well, I wonder if the
Commercial
certificate is worth it. I did also have vague ideas of becoming an
elderly
instructor; forget that.

Now, I know that sounds like special pleading, and Big Brother
already
has
my fingerprints in my Resident Alien file so no big deal, and $130
is
less
than an hour of training, but right now it's looking like the final
straw.
And it's bull**** on the face of it. Residents have already
undergone
deep
security investigations. If everyone reacts like me, the result will
be
less-well-trained pilots mixing it up with the rest of you in the
sky.
Is
the BFR considered training under the rule (part 61 calls it
instruction)?
If so, the clock is ticking in any case. One justification in the
rule
says
that the 9/11 terrorists learned to fly small planes, but there's no
logic
provided to support restrictions on existing certified pilots who
want
more
advanced ratings.

I mailed AOPA, I'll add these comments to the docket. I called my
FBO,
and
the chief instructor said "oh, nice of them to inform the schools"
and
said
she would start rattling cages.

-- David Brooks

What the TSA is trying to say is that since Immigration has done such a
shoddy job of keeping out the bad element that wish to do the country
harm that they are going to take over and re-invent the wheel. I can
only imagine the hassles some folk are going to be subjected to. I
don't think the $130 per candidate is going to cover much of the huge
bureacracy they are going to create. Yet another unfunded mandate that
the taxpayer will end up footing the bill for. You have to admire the
TSA though, they have managed to amass a uniformed staff of the same
people that let the 9/11 people get on board with their weapons and
claim that the flying public is safer. I don't believe flying
commercially is any safer than it was thanks to the TSA. I do however
think that any subsequent hijacking attempt is going to be met with a
lot more resistance from the passengers and unusual attitides from the
folks in the cockpit. People are not going to sit back and wait to be
crashed.

This is just my opinion, if presented with the scenario I'd tend to
think that a handful of hijackers would pose no challenge to a cabinload
of people lobbing full soda cans and caraffes of scalding hot coffee at
them.

Robert


David Brooks wrote:

"Paul Tomblin" wrote in message
...

In a previous article, "David Brooks"

said:

"David Brooks" wrote in message
...

I've lived in this country for many years, paid my taxes, been a
schoolteacher and a Scout leader, and now this:


http://dms.dot.gov/search/searchResu...=19147&searchT

ype=docket.

Amazing. I've briefly scanned it to see if there was an exemption for us
permanent residents, but everywhere I look I see "aliens", not
"non-resident aliens". Hey, I thought I passed my security checks when I
got fingerprinted and had to provide proof that I had no outstanding
warrants back in Canada.

This sucks.


There's a beautiful paragraph in the analysis.

"TSA does not expect a significant impact on the overall demand for U.S.
flight training...the IFR only impacts alien candidates for U.S. flight
training..."

False.

"...and the population of alien candidates is small relative to the number
of U.S. flight students..."

18% is small? OK, it's less than one fifth, but it is significant, and
higher than I would have expected. Where did I get that 18% number? From a
previous page of the IFR, and it comes from the FAA.

"...the impact on demand will not be significant because U.S. flight
training is considered to be the global standard, and it is comparatively
less expensive to obtain a pilot's certificate in the U.S...."

This seems to assume that all noncitizen pilots are traveling here for
training; the argument is irrelevant to people like Paul and me. I'd like to
know how many of that 18% (an FAA number) are residents versus visitors.

-- David Brooks

"David Brooks" wrote in message ...
I've lived in this country for many years, paid my taxes, been a
schoolteacher and a Scout leader, and now this:
http://dms.dot.gov/search/searchResu...hTy pe=docket.
The restrictions recently placed on 12500 training is being extended to all
aircraft. TSA claims that Congress mandated it, and maybe we were all asleep
when that happened. The rule is already in effect; the documentation and
security training requirements kick in Oct 20.

What does "Flight School" mean? Just 141 schools? Does this only apply
to Student Visa applicants? Are they going to ask each of us as CFIs
to inquire about out student's residency status, even if its some guy
working on his private in his friends C-150?

-Robert

"Robert Chambers" wrote in message
m...
What the TSA is trying to say is that since Immigration has done such a
shoddy job of keeping out the bad element that wish to do the country
harm that they are going to take over and re-invent the wheel. I can
only imagine the hassles some folk are going to be subjected to. I
don't think the $130 per candidate is going to cover much of the huge
bureacracy they are going to create. Yet another unfunded mandate that
the taxpayer will end up footing the bill for.

Ah. Read the IFR. Where do you think they came up with $130? They have
actually calculated the recurring cost to the Federal government, and
divided it by the number of applications, and it came to $129.82. Of course
this is an estimate divided by an estimate, and the estimate of number of
fee-generating applications comes from mangling an FAA statistic, but it
looks like they are making an effort to zero-sum it. But oh, lookit, there
is a $3M startup cost that they are not attempting to recover.

They also estimate an annual average cost of $1,500 incurred by the 3,000
flight schools in the economic impact analysis.

-- David Brooks

In a previous article, (Robert M. Gary) said:
http://dms.dot.gov/search/searchResu...hTy pe=docket.

What does "Flight School" mean? Just 141 schools? Does this only apply
to Student Visa applicants? Are they going to ask each of us as CFIs
to inquire about out student's residency status, even if its some guy
working on his private in his friends C-150?

I'm trying to find some time to read the full text of the regulations
above. But from a quick scan, and from some of the comments on there, it
appears that yes, you as a private CFI will have to start checking
people's papers and not accept students unless they either have proof of
citizenship or this TSA certificate.

Another thing that's in that full text is a reckoning of the costs,
including $1,000,000 to build the office space for this bureacracy.

--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Software planning seems to be based on denying plausibility.
-- Graham Reed

"Robert Chambers" wrote in message
m...
....snip...
I do however
think that any subsequent hijacking attempt is going to be met with a
lot more resistance from the passengers and unusual attitides from the
folks in the cockpit. People are not going to sit back and wait to be
crashed.

This is just my opinion, if presented with the scenario I'd tend to
think that a handful of hijackers would pose no challenge to a cabinload
of people lobbing full soda cans and caraffes of scalding hot coffee at
them.



I wish I could share your optimism about that but I do not. People will not
"expect" to be crashed, unless they have military/police training, or were
directly involved and have their vivid memories of a prior incident.

That having been said, I AM optimistic, however, that aviation is about as
safe as it has always been. There will always be a deranged idiot or two
out there, (some of whom are not even aliens), and once in a long while one
will get through, TSA-2004-19147 notwithstanding.


--
*** A great civilization is not conquered from without until it
has destroyed itself from within. ***
- Ariel Durant 1898-1981

NW_PILOT wrote:
One Nation Under Surveillance, Loosing All Our Liberty's and No Real Justice
For Anyone Unless Your A Politician!

Yes, loose liberty. A travesty beyond all belief.

("Icebound" wrote)
...snip...
I do however
think that any subsequent hijacking attempt is going to be met with a
lot more resistance from the passengers and unusual attitides from the
folks in the cockpit. People are not going to sit back and wait to be
crashed.

This is just my opinion, if presented with the scenario I'd tend to
think that a handful of hijackers would pose no challenge to a cabinload
of people lobbing full soda cans and caraffes of scalding hot coffee at
them.


I wish I could share your optimism about that but I do not. People will
not
"expect" to be crashed, unless they have military/police training, or were
directly involved and have their vivid memories of a prior incident.

That having been said, I AM optimistic, however, that aviation is about as
safe as it has always been. There will always be a deranged idiot or two
out there, (some of whom are not even aliens), and once in a long while
one
will get through, TSA-2004-19147 notwithstanding.


Saving so much from the previous two post seemed OK in this
instance.

Want to read something frightening? It's about how we all *might*
respond (post 9/11) to an airline terrorist hijacking?

Read this...

The deeper you get into it, the more troubling it becomes.
http://www.womenswallstreet.com/WWS/...&articleid=711

(Same link as above ...wait for it)
http://makeashorterlink.com/?J548230D8


Montblack

"Montblack" wrote in message
...

I wish I could share your optimism about that but I do not. People will
not
"expect" to be crashed, unless they have military/police training, or
were
directly involved and have their vivid memories of a prior incident.

That having been said, I AM optimistic, however, that aviation is about
as
safe as it has always been. There will always be a deranged idiot or two
out there, (some of whom are not even aliens), and once in a long while
one
will get through, TSA-2004-19147 notwithstanding.


Saving so much from the previous two post seemed OK in this
instance.

Want to read something frightening? It's about how we all *might*
respond (post 9/11) to an airline terrorist hijacking?

Read this...

The deeper you get into it, the more troubling it becomes.
http://www.womenswallstreet.com/WWS/...&articleid=711

(Same link as above ...wait for it)
http://makeashorterlink.com/?J548230D8


Montblack

Sorry but this article has been done to death and IMO, the author is a glory
seeking crackpot who was / is paranoid.

Jay Beckman
Chandler, AZ

("Jay Beckman" wrote)
The deeper you get into it, the more troubling it becomes.

http://www.womenswallstreet.com/WWS/...&articleid=711

(Same link as above ...wait for it)
http://makeashorterlink.com/?J548230D8

Sorry but this article has been done to death and IMO, the author is a
glory
seeking crackpot who was / is paranoid.


I've been ...away... for a spell, so I'll just mosey on over and untie my
rope from those four big legs sticking up in the air. Well Old Paint, looks
like no more trips around the corral for you tonight.


Montblack