Cellphone via headset ?

Cockpit Colin wrote:

You'd probably think differently if you knew what it cost to make it.

If it costs them that much then they don't know what they're doing.
There are two companies making these that I'm aware of that don't come
close to this cost and several headset manufacturers that add them to
their headsets.

I suggest you take a look at the product first - you're not comparing apples
with apples. For starters the headset one is more than likely a simple
analog input whereas the flightcell is fully microprocessor controlled - has
built in intercom - satelite input/output - individual gain control on all
channels - interferance rejection etc. Honestly, it't not just a case of
twisting a few wires and throwing in a few resistors.


"Thomas Borchert" wrote in message
...
Cockpit,

You'd probably think differently if you knew what it cost to make it.


You're kidding, right? If one company can produce a full ANR headset
with a cell phone adapter for what another company charges for the cell
phone adapter alone, one of the two is ripping its clients off.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Why do you need a connection to your headset? I just slide
the earpiece of my flip phone under the headset earpiece
and it works just fine.


"Christian" wrote in message
...
In some occations it might be handy to use the cellphone in the airplane,
but the noisy atmosphere makes it somewhat difficult.

I found an ad for an interesting "box" that connects a handphone to the
intercom/headset allowing for better quality communications.
http://www.flightcell.co.nz/flightce...flighcell.html

Any experience out there regarding the Flightcell IV, that also allows for
plugin of a handheld comm-set that might be handy in case of a radio
failure?

I am also aware that some of the newer ANR headsets allows for plug-in of
cellphones.

--
Christian
ENZV

If it costs them that much then they don't know what they're doing.
There are two companies making these that I'm aware of that don't come
close to this cost and several headset manufacturers that add them to
their headsets.

That was my (uninformed) opinion too - unfortunately I had to eat humble pie
when I started asking the designers some "pointed" questions. For starters,
as I said in a previous post, you have to compare apples with apples. Show
me the microprocessor in the headset interface - show me the intercom - show
me the seperate satelite phone connection - show me the individual controls
over input / output levels for all of the above. Show me how some of the
competing products raise the mic bias level to actually make an incompatible
headset compatible (and is fine tuned even more by adjustment of the mic
volume).

And as with many things in life, you get what you pay for - you can pay $3
for a set of unshielded leads - or $8 for a set of quality ones from a
quality manufacturer - these things, like a lot of things in aviation get
the **** kicked out of them - processing warrenty claims on things like that
is the kind of thing that can easily kill a product if you start out with
typical "local electronics store" components.

It's like accusing Toyota of ripping people off because a Lada also has a
car with 4 doors and a steering wheel - it's not a fair comparison. For
those who don't need all that flightcell does - and only want a simple
cellphone interface then (after my constant nagging to the owner they
produced flightcell2go - at a similar price to other products.

I can't say too much more without breaking confidences - but I can say that
after looking at all the units on the market the US Airforce has to date
bought over 1200 flightcells (with a lot more military things in the
pipeline than I can tell you) - even Bose selected them for a partner
product. Hopefully that tells you something about the quality of the
product.

I started my Avionic training in the military back in 1978 - so it's
probably fair to say I know a think or two about avionics too - and when I
wanted a cell phone interface I thought it would be a simple thing to
design - you know "twist a few wires around a few resisters thrown in for
impedance matching) - and to a point it is - but to try and do the job
properly is a different story - trying to get one product to work with a
diverse range of cell phones and headsets is a nightmare. Things that you
don't think of initially - for example the unit comes with (off memory) 5
adaptors for the most popular types of phones on the market - and whereas
the adaptors take care of the physical connectivity one flightcell design
that works well with, say, AMPS type cell phone technology had the
interferance render it useless with the interferance generated by CDMA
phones - all issues that had to be solved in the design. Some headsets need
a 6 volt mic biad to work best - others need 9 volts or more. If you don't
get these issues solved you end up with a whole bunch of returns and a lot
of people saying the product is crap.

Then you start to get into other areas people just don't think of - they're
not making millions of these things - they're not assembled by robots -
staff need wages - production lines cost money - freight on parts needs to
be paid - the mould for the case alone was over $5000 USD - money is spent
on sales staff commissions - web site design - travel / food / accommodation
/ booths at places like OshKosh. I've been privvy to a lot of these costs in
general terms - believe me the guy running the show isn't stupid - has been
doing this for a lot of years - and when I saw the rough figures on how they
got to the retail price I had to admit it was quite reasonable.

Just in from the creator ...

Quote ...

There is no component in Flightcell with more than 1% tolerance.
There are in excess of 180 components on the PCB. The connectors cost

minimum $10 USD each and there are up to 4 of those. Add to this 5 digital

pots at $12 each and already you can see ...

AND ...

If he signs a NDA, we will send him all the drawings. If he can make it

cheaper than we can without any reduction in quality then we will send all

our production to him. How's that for challenge. This is a serious offer!!!!

[END QUOTE]

So, is anyone going to take him up on the offer?


"NW_PILOT" wrote in message
...

"Cockpit Colin" wrote in message
...
You'd probably think differently if you knew what it cost to make it.


Ohh don't go there, I have reverse engineered many electronics devices in
my
9 years being an E.E. I know the cost of electronics devices quality of
PCB's and components & workmanship. None of the cell phone adapters would
cost over $5.00ea to have mass produced and that is a high estimate using
good parts with tolerances of 1-2% not 5 to 10% and for $300.00 I could
build 20 of them using US supply houses.

I have a friend from New Zealand who says that they "require" you to have a
cell phone interface wired through the audio panel. Anybody from NZ with
details?

Mike
MU-2


"Cockpit Colin" wrote in message
...
Just in from the creator ...

Quote ...

There is no component in Flightcell with more than 1% tolerance.
There are in excess of 180 components on the PCB. The connectors cost

minimum $10 USD each and there are up to 4 of those. Add to this 5 digital

pots at $12 each and already you can see ...

AND ...

If he signs a NDA, we will send him all the drawings. If he can make it

cheaper than we can without any reduction in quality then we will send all

our production to him. How's that for challenge. This is a serious
offer!!!!

[END QUOTE]

So, is anyone going to take him up on the offer?


"NW_PILOT" wrote in message
...

"Cockpit Colin" wrote in message
...
You'd probably think differently if you knew what it cost to make it.


Ohh don't go there, I have reverse engineered many electronics devices in
my
9 years being an E.E. I know the cost of electronics devices quality of
PCB's and components & workmanship. None of the cell phone adapters would
cost over $5.00ea to have mass produced and that is a high estimate using
good parts with tolerances of 1-2% not 5 to 10% and for $300.00 I could
build 20 of them using US supply houses.

No foundation to that one.

"Cockpit Colin" wrote in message
...
Just in from the creator ...

Quote ...

There is no component in Flightcell with more than 1% tolerance.
There are in excess of 180 components on the PCB.

Ok well they can talk but until they start giving manufacture part #'s and
if surface mount reel #'s and lot #'s I would say they are using the
cheapest parts their contract mfg can get their hands on.


The connectors cost minimum $10 USD each and there are up to 4 of those.
Add to this 5 digital

Yea Right!!!! Provide a Part #


pots at $12 each and already you can see ...

Still no part #'s to back up their claim


AND ...

If he signs a NDA, we will send him all the drawings. If he can make it

Sign a non disclosure agreement hahaha why would I want to do that I would
just buy one take it apart get all the part #'s values & redraw the pcb with
minor changes & improvements being sure not to infringe on their intlectual
property. Or use a schmetaic capture and redraw the PCB from a schematic
then make some changes thicken a trade here and there add a layer ect.. The
only real expensive thing would be the injection molds & molding to house
the device but could get that down to a reasonable price if production
quantity was sufficient.

Ohh and if I signed an NDA and found out they were using substandard parts I
could not say anything becuse of the NDA.


cheaper than we can without any reduction in quality then we will send all

our production to him.

I Humm tempting but NO, not with a NDA. Better yet why dont they try a few
places below and outsource it themselves I would do it but I require
customers to make schematics publicaly avaiable due to liability reasons.
The PCB mfg's below are some of the major players in the asian market today
some can do up to 24 layer poly-u boards and most have their own contract
mfg facilitys.

Onpress Printed Circuits Limited
http://www.onpress.com.hk

Three Sun Enterprise Co Ltd
http://www.three-sun.com

Shenzhen Shennan Circuits Co Ltd
http://www.shennancircuits.com

Xing Da Printed Circuit Board Manufacturer
http://www.zsxingda.com

Global Expert Technologies Ltd
http://www.getpwb.com

Evergreen PCB Fty Ltd
http://www.evergreenpcb.com

I Have about 100 More Contract MFG's & PCB MFG's on my list that I use.
These are a few top players in Asia. Please Fwd this to who ever tell them
to have fun but no MFG's will even touch their Gerber Files or Drill Data
with an NDA as they may have to subcontract the work.

How's that for challenge. This is a serious offer!!!!


Not to serious of an offer with a NDA how could it be outsourced with a NDA

[END QUOTE]

So, is anyone going to take him up on the offer?

As I said above No MFG's will even touch their Gerber Files or Drill Data
with an NDA as they may have to subcontract the work. I take that offer a as
insult and so would other's. You will see when dealing with Asian Corporate
Businessmen they expect to be treated with trust and respect it's a totally
different set of business ethics not like the U.S. market ware it needs to
be earned no wonder their production costs are high. Most contract mfg's
will not disclose your details anyway unless it kills someone.

NW_Pilot
PP-ASEL

OtisWinslow wrote:

Why do you need a connection to your headset? I just slide
the earpiece of my flip phone under the headset earpiece
and it works just fine.

Because that way it's a handsfree operation.

Cockpit Colin wrote:

If it costs them that much then they don't know what they're doing.
There are two companies making these that I'm aware of that don't come
close to this cost and several headset manufacturers that add them to
their headsets.


That was my (uninformed) opinion too - unfortunately I had to eat humble pie
when I started asking the designers some "pointed" questions. For starters,
as I said in a previous post, you have to compare apples with apples. Show
me the microprocessor in the headset interface - show me the intercom - show
me the seperate satelite phone connection - show me the individual controls
over input / output levels for all of the above. Show me how some of the
competing products raise the mic bias level to actually make an incompatible
headset compatible (and is fine tuned even more by adjustment of the mic
volume).

That's called overkill. I have no idea what's in my cellset. Don't
care. The cellphone volume is the same as the radio volume, you don't
realize how important that is until you use a unit that doesn't do that.
Unit works flawlessly, it rings in my headset and people on the other
end cannot tell I'm in the plane. If I didn't tell them that I was
flying they would never know it. I built a little L shaped stand that
is velcroed to my windshield so the phone antenna is always looking
outside, always get a signal and makes it easy to dial while in flight.



And as with many things in life, you get what you pay for

And sometimes, as in this example, you get less than what you pay for.



I can't say too much more without breaking confidences - but I can say that
after looking at all the units on the market the US Airforce has to date
bought over 1200 flightcells

Apples and Oranges to compare the US Air Force with a spam can.



I started my Avionic training in the military back in 1978 - so it's
probably fair to say I know a think or two about avionics too - and when I
wanted a cell phone interface I thought it would be a simple thing to
design - you know "twist a few wires around a few resisters thrown in for
impedance matching) - and to a point it is - but to try and do the job
properly is a different story - trying to get one product to work with a
diverse range of cell phones and headsets is a nightmare. Things that you
don't think of initially - for example the unit comes with (off memory) 5
adaptors for the most popular types of phones on the market - and whereas
the adaptors take care of the physical connectivity one flightcell design
that works well with, say, AMPS type cell phone technology had the
interferance render it useless with the interferance generated by CDMA
phones - all issues that had to be solved in the design. Some headsets need
a 6 volt mic biad to work best - others need 9 volts or more. If you don't
get these issues solved you end up with a whole bunch of returns and a lot
of people saying the product is crap.

I have used my cellset with 7 different phones. One analog only
Motorola Star Tac and 6 various other phones, all digital/analog. They
all sound the same and work as expected. All use the same standard
plug, 2.5mm maybe, I forget.



Then you start to get into other areas people just don't think of - they're
not making millions of these things - they're not assembled by robots -
staff need wages - production lines cost money - freight on parts needs to
be paid - the mould for the case alone was over $5000 USD - money is spent
on sales staff commissions - web site design - travel / food / accommodation
/ booths at places like OshKosh. I've been privvy to a lot of these costs in
general terms - believe me the guy running the show isn't stupid - has been
doing this for a lot of years - and when I saw the rough figures on how they
got to the retail price I had to admit it was quite reasonable.

Well whatever. When you're $150 more than the competition and the
public sees the units as equal you're screwed.