Class D Sucks

After ten years and 1400 hours, we're far more comfortable
flying into busy non-controlled airspace than we are flying into so-called
controlled Class D airspace. That is a clear indication that Class D is not
working properly.

After 15 years and 5700 hours, Class D has worked for me.
I think it just might be a mixture of crappy pilots (Not saying you are one),
crappy controllers and bad timing.
I have seen both at various airports with Class D all over the country.

When I fly VFR into Class D (or any airspace, for that matter), I usually take
the controllers word as advice. I usually follow it because there is usually a
good reason to, but sometimes...ya just never know.

The key to it is realize the system isn't perfect and do not expect perfection.
Just gotta keep your head on swivel and your SA up.




-John
*You are nothing until you have flown a Douglas, Lockheed, Grumman or North
American*

"Jay Honeck" wrote:
That's my point. After ten years and 1400 hours, we're far more
comfortable
flying into busy non-controlled airspace than we are flying into so-called
controlled Class D airspace. That is a clear indication that Class D is
not
working properly.

My Class D airport works great and would be less safe without the tower, IMO.
It gets extremely busy at times with a mix of industrial helicopters,
military training, freighter heavies and GA jets and props. It has an FAA
tower with contract controllers; a veteran crew with solid techniques for
handling the peculiarities of the local traffic and airspace. I'd hate to
see the tower closed, as its controllers have always been better at calling
traffic than the local TRACON folks. Now that they finally have DBRITE
they've gotten even better. We kid them that it's taken all the fun out of
their jobs because we can't sneak up on them anymore.

When the airspace is
dead (as it usually is at a Class D tower), everything works fine --
although certainly no better than in "non-towered" airspace.

It's only when traffic picks up that things can get hairy -- which is truly
absurd when you consider that there wouldn't even BE a reason for a tower
except for those busy times.

I have negligible experience at other Class Ds, but my experience where I'm
based has been just the opposite.
--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM

Dubuque controllers seem to firmly believe that they are
"controlling" traffic inside their airspace

Do they accept responsibility for separation?

But at least [uncontrolled] we're all expecting the same thing from each other,
rather than having a binocular-equipped controller trying to send us in
different directions.

I seem to remember you having diatribes against pilots who don't "fly
the pattern" at uncontrolled airports too. Controllers have more than
binoculars - they have pencil and paper, and minds. They don't just
"send you in different directions" (though I had one at EMT that sent
me almost all around the airport to approach from the other side).
They do so with a purpose. Sometimes, like anybody, they make errors.

almost every time I fly
into busy non-radar Class D airspace, I witness something stupid and/or
borderline dangerous.

Either you fly in wild places, or you have a different threshold of
"stupid/dangerous".

What makes [split patterns] wrong in non-radar Class D airspace is the fact that the
controller is still relying on each of us seeing each other for proper
spacing. Since he's directed half the traffic to fly an opposing pattern,
spotting the correct plane in the sky is problematic.

That has never been a problem with me. I have just as much difficulty
finding traffic in my pattern as in the opposite one. Sometimes the
opposite pattern is easier to spot. And in any case, when they say
"you're number 4" I look for three airplanes. When they say "You're
number 24" I'm glad we have a controller helping out.

Jose
--
Freedom. It seemed like a good idea at the time.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 22:03:06 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

Over the years, I have posted several diatribes against Class D (so-called)
"controlled" airspace. In my opinion, having guys standing in a control
tower with binoculars, trying to "control" air traffic is, at best, a
ludicrous throw-back to a simpler time. At worst, it's dangerous.

Jay - it might be time to buy a TCAD or at least a Mode S-TIS equipped
transponder :-)

-Nathan

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:uCnwd.511240$wV.477723@attbi_s54...
Over the years, I have posted several diatribes against Class D
(so-called)
"controlled" airspace.

Actually, too many Class D tower operators spend way to much time staring at
the radar repeater, if they have one, and not enough time looking out the
window with binoculars. It is like pilots who stare at the instruments and
don't look out the windows.

Class D may be controlled airspace, but that does not relieve you of the
responsibility to see and avoid. Even class B or A airspace does not relieve
you of that responsibility.

Hi Jay,

I have flown into Dubuque a few times so I'm familiar with the area. I have
also more frequently fly in and out of much busier Class D airspaces than
Dubuque, most all of which have traffic simultaneously on left and right
down winds. I have no problem with this. Although I have had my share of
run arounds with incompetent controllers, over all I appreciate their
efforts and believe they provide a professional and needed service.

I'm sure you've already seen all the "see and avoid is your responsibility,
not the controllers" etc etc... I was not there so I am not condemning your
actions, but would like to inject a couple of things for thought.

For example, did you notify the controller that you 'had the traffic
insight" and if you thought he was in the 'wrong' position in the pattern,
did you relay your concerns to the controller?

You stated,

As we were sliding down final approach, this guy was still out my right
window, above us and approaching the runway at a 45 degree angle, clearly
out of position.

Assuming there is no immediate danger and if you've already called the
traffic in sight without a satisfactory response from ATC, this seems the
perfect opportunity to say something such as, "Confirming Nxxxx cleared for
landing"? giving the controller the opportunity to check and possibly see
the other aircraft.

If you don't get the response expected, you might say something such as, "Ok
just checking because it appears there's another aircraft on final just
above us."

I'm not trying to tell you how to talk on the radio, just giving you ideas
of possibilities to think about in unusual situations.

Most important is that if we at all perceive a situation to be dangerous, it
is incumbent upon us as pilots to pass our concerns on to the appropriate
personal, whether it's ATC or another pilot in the area.

We are all responsible for proper safety and communication it every bit as
important as "see and avoid".

PJ

============================================
Here's to the duck who swam a lake and never lost a feather,
May sometime another year, we all be back together.
JJW
============================================

I have flown into Dubuque a few times so I'm familiar with the area. I
have
also more frequently fly in and out of much busier Class D airspaces than
Dubuque, most all of which have traffic simultaneously on left and right
down winds. I have no problem with this.

I doubt you have flown into an environment that was busier than that segment
of time that Mary and I hit Dubuque.

I've flown into Oshkosh and Sun N Fun numerous times -- arguably the busiest
airspace in the world -- and not seen (and heard) more people landing than
we did in Dubuque. It was just a fluke thing, with many students, many
simultaneous arrivals, and one doofus pilot all arriving in DBQ at once.

Twenty minutes later, eating breakfast, we saw nary a plane landing.

I'm sure you've already seen all the "see and avoid is your
responsibility,
not the controllers" etc etc... I was not there so I am not condemning
your
actions, but... snip

Not to pick on you, PJ, but I always have to laugh at the folks on the
newsgroups who immediately swing the old "it's your responsibility to see
and avoid" bat whenever I (or anyone else, for that matter) brings up
problems with controlled airspace. NO ONE is arguing that it is not our
responsibility to see and avoid. NO ONE is advocating any other rule, and
NO ONE is abdicating that responsibility. This point of this thread is an
entirely separate issue, and ONLY pertains to my perceptions of the
weaknesses of the FAA's concept of Class D airspace.

For example, did you notify the controller that you 'had the traffic
insight" and if you thought he was in the 'wrong' position in the pattern,
did you relay your concerns to the controller?

IMHO it would be inappropriate to call out "traffic in sight" to a
controller who (a) had not called out traffic to me specifically, and (b)
was rattling off instructions a mile a minute to half a dozen other planes.
Trust me, if the airwaves had been silent, Mary would have been asking ATC
what the heck that guy was doing.

We are all responsible for proper safety and communication it every bit as
important as "see and avoid".

Agreed.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck wrote:

entirely separate issue, and ONLY pertains to my perceptions of the
weaknesses of the FAA's concept of Class D airspace.

Unless I'm missing some USA specifics (if so, please correct me):
Class D airspace is not an FAA concept but rather an ICAO definition. It
seems to me that you should sit down and re-read the airspace
definitions. Class D: *No* separation provided for VFR flights.

Stefan

Unless I'm missing some USA specifics (if so, please correct me):
Class D airspace is not an FAA concept but rather an ICAO definition. It
seems to me that you should sit down and re-read the airspace definitions.
Class D: *No* separation provided for VFR flights.

Right -- there is no separation provided in Class D. And no one should
expect the controller to maintain separation.

This is precisely my point, which may be summed up thusly: Class D is
"pretend" controlled airspace. It should be regarded as "Barely
controlled" or "Semi-controlled"...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:fPAwd.586096$D%.508731@attbi_s51...
Right -- there is no separation provided in Class D. And no one should
expect the controller to maintain separation.

This is precisely my point, which may be summed up thusly: Class D is
"pretend" controlled airspace. It should be regarded as "Barely
controlled" or "Semi-controlled"...

How about "Out of Control"?


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO