Wheelbarrowing and Flare

On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 23:23:57 GMT, zatatime wrote:

On 25 Dec 2004 02:00:24 -0800, "Ramapriya" wrote:

Has anyone seen wheelbarrowing occur? Prima facie, it appears too
improbable (ludicrous almost) a thing to happen but even the FAA
Airplane Flying Handbook copy that I have mentions it!

Saw one today by someone who was obviously uncomfortable in their new
Bonanza.

The curse of the Bo pilotG According to the Bo specific Pilot
Proficiency training I went to, most Bo pilots land their planes way
too fast. They really had to work to get most of them to slow down.

OTOH you should have heard the complaints when told they were going to
do full departure stalls with the yoke blocked so they couldn't use
the ailerons. LOL

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
z

On 25 Dec 2004 02:00:24 -0800, "Ramapriya" wrote:

Has anyone seen wheelbarrowing occur? Prima facie, it appears too

I've seen it a couple of times, but porpoising is much more common.
Wheelbarrowing is due to forcing the plane down when it's still going
too fast to land.

Porpoising OTOH is from not getting the nose up soon enough. The plane
is rotating (nose coming up) when the nose wheel hits first, this
leads to the nose rebounding up and the mains come down and rebound.
You can get some pretty dramatic bounces this way.

The best way to stop a porpoise is to just give it the power and go
around.

The typical porpoise ends up with the pilot behind the airplane (OK so
it started that way), and each bounce gets bigger. They say three
times and out. I saw two instances where this was true. On the third
time they busted the nose gear right off on both planes.

improbable (ludicrous almost) a thing to happen but even the FAA
Airplane Flying Handbook copy that I have mentions it!

Some well known planes are quite prone to porpoising if the pilot gets
behind it. They are a bit heavy up front although the CG is fine. The
problem comes in landing. That is why you see cautions about checking
firewalls for wrinkles when purchasing a used plane.


Also, while the ways of performing a flare is mentioned at many places,
the reason for a flare is conspicuously absent everywhere. Just why is

Actually it's not. *Almost* anything that flys flares on landing
whether it has jet engines or feathers.

a flare needed vis-a-vis a 3-point landing? After all, birds just come
in and sit, without having to flare...

Virtually all the birds I've seen flare and they are really good at it
with many almost coming to a stop just before their feet touch down.

As some one else mentioned, with your interest you should take up
flying if you haven't already.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com


Ramapriya

I've seen porpoising. And wheelbarrowing. Very bad juju! Very dangerous.
Everyone *must* learn not to do either!

The most physically dangerous thing that I see with porpoising is the
possibility of stalling at the top of the second or third porpoise, after
the a/c finally runs out of lift, while you are 15-20 feet off of the
ground! Not good.

-Frank

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...


Ramapriya wrote:

Has anyone seen wheelbarrowing occur? Prima facie, it appears too
improbable (ludicrous almost) a thing to happen but even the FAA
Airplane Flying Handbook copy that I have mentions it!

I've seen it at least twice. The worst case was a Cessna trying to get in
before
the field closed for the Sussex County Airshow. The nosewheel hit first
and
bounced. Then the mains hit and bounced. The nosewheel came down again,
harder.
The plane started porpoising. The third time the nosewheel hit, the tire
was
nearly flattened. The noise was impressive. He managed to keep it down on
the
fourth strike -- I think the plane had just given up trying to fly by that
time.

Also, while the ways of performing a flare is mentioned at many places,
the reason for a flare is conspicuously absent everywhere. Just why is
a flare needed vis-a-vis a 3-point landing?

Typically, the nosegear is more delicate than the mains. The steering
mechanism
also may give trouble at high speeds (shimmy is a problem with many
designs).
The general idea is to keep the nosewheel off the ground until you're sure
there
won't be a problem.

It's also true that the consequences of "wheelbarrowing" can be severe. If
the
nosewheel touches before the mains, the back end of the plane continues
down
until the mains hit. Once the mains hit, the back end stops traveling
down, but
the plane continues to rotate, and the nose wheel leaves the ground again.
Over-reaction by the pilot may cause the nosewheel to come back down even
harder. There have been cases of prop strikes, flattened tires, loss of
directional control, and even cases in which the nosegear broke off. And
doing
it in front a a thousand people or so is embarrassing. Flaring properly is
an
excellent way of ensuring that this never happens to you.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

On Sat, 25 Dec 2004 22:11:36 -0500, Roger
wrote:

Saw one today by someone who was obviously uncomfortable in their new
Bonanza.

The curse of the Bo pilotG According to the Bo specific Pilot
Proficiency training I went to, most Bo pilots land their planes way
too fast. They really had to work to get most of them to slow down.

From general observation, I totally agree. The guy today was carrying
significant power all the way to the runway and must've touched down
at around 100 - half way down the 3500 foot strip. I could see him
where I stood, and he looked busier than anything I can make an
analogy for. I kind of felt bad for him.

OTOH you should have heard the complaints when told they were going to
do full departure stalls with the yoke blocked so they couldn't use
the ailerons. LOL

That made me laugh! God forbid they need to do something they'll
learn from!

z

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote

And doing it (nosewheel landings) in front a a thousand people or so is
embarrassing. Flaring properly is an excellent way of ensuring that this
never happens to you.

George Patterson


George, is this a confession? g ducking and running
--
Jim in NC

Morgans wrote:

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote

And doing it (nosewheel landings) in front a a thousand people or so is
embarrassing. Flaring properly is an excellent way of ensuring that this
never happens to you.

George Patterson

George, is this a confession? g ducking and running

Nope -- still thinking about that Cessna pilot at Sussex.

I fly a Maule. There's an entire 'nother category of possibilities for
embarassment. We won't discuss my first arrival at Oshkosh ( at least I didn't
run down the Ford tri-motor).

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

Mackfly wrote:
From: "Ramapriya"

who seems to not know a lot about flying or birds---yes bird do
flare!!!!!!

Relax, mate. I've never claimed I know anything but nothing, though I
hope not to remain at this level forever

Cheers,

Ramapriya

On Sun, 26 Dec 2004, G.R. Patterson III wrote:
Morgans wrote:

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote

And doing it (nosewheel landings) in front a a thousand people or so is
embarrassing. Flaring properly is an excellent way of ensuring that this
never happens to you.

George Patterson

George, is this a confession? g ducking and running

Nope -- still thinking about that Cessna pilot at Sussex.

I fly a Maule. There's an entire 'nother category of possibilities for
embarassment.

"There are two categories of tailwheel pilot: those who have groundlooped
their aircraft, and those who will."

Been there, done that, just once. Didn't ding self, plane or runway
lights, and went up to do another two touch-n-goes to get back on the
horse that threw me...

The wind was gusty & getting close to my X-wind limits (nowhere near the
Citabria's limits, just my personal ones at the time...), so I planned one
last touch-n-go before the full stop. My approach was squirrelly, the wind
gusted hard just at touchdown, and I may have tapped the brakes;
the next thing I knew I was rolling down one of 09's taxiways and Tower
was saying, "Juliet Tango Mike, you OK out there?"

I should have gone into the grass, but Golf taxiway was at exactly the
right spot for me... Got the plane looked at when I went back to the Club;
no stress on it. I was another matter!

We won't discuss my first arrival at Oshkosh ( at least I didn't
run down the Ford tri-motor).

Likewise, I missed the runway lights!

Brian
www.warbard.ca/avgas/

In article ,
Roger wrote:



I've seen it a couple of times, but porpoising is much more common.
Wheelbarrowing is due to forcing the plane down when it's still going
too fast to land.

I guess I'm just more creative. I was getting a check-out in a 207 long
ago. There was just the CFI and me in the airplane, not a lot of gas.
The first takeoff we used 10 or 20 flap, I guess I held a little forward
pressure on the yoke because I was worried about this "big, heavy, fast
airplane" coming off the ground to slow. G The initial liftoff was
main wheels first. I can tell you from experience that a 207 doesn't
handle well with just the nosewheel on the ground. Since I wasn't doing
very well driving it I rotated to try flying it and things calmed down.
I have NEVER done that again.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

I've seen it a couple of times, but porpoising is much more common.

We had a friend earn his ticket in Iowa City a few years ago who porpoised a
rental Archer so badly that the nosewheel collapsed and the engine had to be
torn down. The prop was a total loss, too, of course.

Sadly, it rattled him so badly that he absolutely disappeared off the face
of the earth after that episode. I've never seen him again, and I presume
he's quit flying.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"