flying with different instructors

I have to try your method. Maybe I can get my pattern flying without
'thinking' at all. Right now it is semi-smooth but completely not
mindless.

In a Warrior-II, 152 or 172P with just an instructor and a student, setting
2100 RPM on downwind, and trimming for hands off flight seems to set the
airplane up for a normal approach speed when using 20-deg of flaps, and the
short-field approach speed with 30-deg of flaps.

Are you sure about the RPM? The method I've been taught is
drop the RPM to 1600-1700 (weight depending) when abeam the
numbers and throw in one notch flaps and pitch for 90 KIAS.
On base, 2 notches of flaps and pitch for 80 KIAS
and on final 3 notches and pitch for 70 KIAS. At 2100 RPM,
I'd still a few hundred feet off the ground.

Gerald

2100 is for when you're level (i.e. before you're abeam the numbers) and
trimming the airplane. Once you're abeam the numbers, you bring the power
back to something that gives you the rate of descent you'd like (and where
the previous posters point holds true... do get too fussy, look out thte
window at the airplane entering the pattern on an extended base or a long
final), put in your flaps, and slow to approach speed. Also keep in mind
that the actual power setting may vary from airplane to airplane.

Good luck,

-Rob

"G. Sylvester" wrote in message
news
I have to try your method. Maybe I can get my pattern flying without
'thinking' at all. Right now it is semi-smooth but completely not
mindless.

In a Warrior-II, 152 or 172P with just an instructor and a student,
setting 2100 RPM on downwind, and trimming for hands off flight seems to
set the airplane up for a normal approach speed when using 20-deg of
flaps, and the short-field approach speed with 30-deg of flaps.

Are you sure about the RPM? The method I've been taught is
drop the RPM to 1600-1700 (weight depending) when abeam the
numbers and throw in one notch flaps and pitch for 90 KIAS.
On base, 2 notches of flaps and pitch for 80 KIAS
and on final 3 notches and pitch for 70 KIAS. At 2100 RPM,
I'd still a few hundred feet off the ground.

Gerald

wrote in message

I think that it is probably reasonable to work with different CFIs at that
level.
but not when you're starting out.

Read your arguments for your statement, and they make sense!

Thanks and have a great New Year.
-c

I'm sure you have your own opinions on this, but FWIW to anyone else
reading my answer, I have never been an advocate of multiple instructors
during primary training, ESPECIALLY before solo. I'm sure there are
those who have had multiple CFI's during the period I don't advocate
them, but I simply don't recommend it, and never have.
I do however see distinct advantages to multiple instructors during
training for advanced ratings.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/CFI Retired
for email; take out the trash

"gatt" wrote in message
...

Chief flight instructor and my primary instructor are both gone for
the
week, so I've been flying with whatever low-time, newly-minted
Cessna-jockey
greenhorn flight instructor that answers the phone when I call to
schedule.
I've flown with four different instructors in the last two weeks.

I wholeheartedly recommend this. Each instructor has his own way of
explaining and demonstrating things, (working on complex rating and
commercial, part 141) as well as slight variations of technique and
procedure. The result is that I've been able to choose the methods
which
work best and with which I'm most comfortable, AND check these things
against other instructors to make sure it's right.

The newer guys have a great sense of enthusiasm, and since the boss is
out
of the shop, they've got great information about what it's REALLY like
flying as a CFI out of that FBO and things like, how many hours one
might
expect to accumulate over the summer flying season.

I've had one instructor who's a Major in the Air Force and learned at
the
academy, one who is a retired Marine and learned in the '60s, one who
is an
Embry Riddle graduate and one who earned his CFI wings from two of the
others and has only been instructing for a year. The four different
perspectives have made every flight not just practice, but a new
learning
experience. My primary instructor is excellent, but I wish I'd have
been
doing this to some degree all along!

-c

Dudley
We agree again g. I recently finished a student who is a rarity in
that I have been his only instructor. He committed to hit it hard and
steady and he passed his PP check ride with a total of 41.3 hours when
he walked in to take it. He flew 3 times a week, got a 98 on his
written and the DE said he was a delight to fly with and no weak areas
except in maintenance paperwork. Was fuzzy on AD vs service bulletin vs
regular entries in the logbooks. He took roughly 3 months with a few
weather interruptions like Hurricane Ivan, and spent just under $5000
all inclusive with headset and other pilot tools.
He is the first student I have had "captive" in many years. As a Chief
Instructor at a number of schools, nearly all the students had been
exposed to a variety of instructors and I did phase checks as well as
standardization rides for my CFI's.
I have often recommended a student fly with another CFI to see if there
was an area or presentation that was better for that student. Sometimes
it was just personality that made a difference. My own style is pretty
relaxed, low key, and demanding as hell. I have high standards of
performance for those I choose to fly with or give instruction to and
am relentless in demanding they meet those standards.
But, as you know, I am one of those pilots who has been everywhere and
done nearly everything of interest to guys like us.
Best personal regards and best wishes for a successful and healthy New
Year to all.
Ol Shy & Bashful

Hi Rock;
Good to hear from you.
You'd be surprised how often we agree :-))

I think a lot has changed since the old days when I was doing primary
instructing. I watched it change through the years I was doing nothing
but aerobatic instruction, then through my "consultation" years :-).
Getting a full time student from start to finish seems to be the
exception today rather than the norm. The old FBO's where you drove out
to the local airport on Sunday; found a CFI who had been at that airport
for a hundred years and signed up to take a lesson each weekend are
hanging in there, but becoming more and more rare as time goes on.
It's been interesting for me, watching this transition as I wandered
through the path of my career in aviation.
It's a much more complicated world out there now as you know all too
well, and the whole scenario involving learning to fly has changed a
great deal. People move a round a lot more; jobs change like the
weather; the costs have skyrocketed; lawyers and insurance have entered
the equation now,and CFI's have a tendency to be part time and
transient. It's a whole new world out there.
Frankly, I really miss the old days. There are still a few of the old
airports around where you can go and sit around the picnic table on a
warm clear Sunday afternoon with the same bunch that show up like
clockwork every week, and talk flying while everybody "grades" the
landing just made out on the runway a few yards away. At our little
grass field where I learned to fly, we actually had large white
cardboard signs with a 0 on one side and a 10 on the other side like the
figure skater cards. After some poor character would land, we'd all be
sitting there holding up the cards showing our "choice" for the score as
the pilot taxied in.
There's a serious training point that I could make here about all this
fun. That scenario I just described was also a learning environment. New
pilots learned quite a lot about flying during those fun filled Sunday
sessions around the old picnic table. I can remember many times sitting
there with a student watching a landing and getting a question that
changed the atmosphere immediately into a serious training mode. The
whole table would listen as the more experienced straightened out things
for the new pilots on something. You could see the learning in their
faces.
Yup...that ole table out there was the best classroom I ever had to
teach in! :-)
The 141 operations were different of course. We pushed them through
faster. We still did a good job, but for me, it was never the same as
that old airport on a Sunday morning with everybody gathered around
having fun and learning something every second they were there.

Sounds like you did a hell of a job with that "captive" student, and in
minimum time as well.
Have a great and safe new year Rock; I'm sure we'll be "talkin" again
:-)
Dudley




wrote in message
ups.com...
Dudley
We agree again g. I recently finished a student who is a rarity in
that I have been his only instructor. He committed to hit it hard and
steady and he passed his PP check ride with a total of 41.3 hours when
he walked in to take it. He flew 3 times a week, got a 98 on his
written and the DE said he was a delight to fly with and no weak areas
except in maintenance paperwork. Was fuzzy on AD vs service bulletin
vs
regular entries in the logbooks. He took roughly 3 months with a few
weather interruptions like Hurricane Ivan, and spent just under $5000
all inclusive with headset and other pilot tools.
He is the first student I have had "captive" in many years. As a Chief
Instructor at a number of schools, nearly all the students had been
exposed to a variety of instructors and I did phase checks as well as
standardization rides for my CFI's.
I have often recommended a student fly with another CFI to see if
there
was an area or presentation that was better for that student.
Sometimes
it was just personality that made a difference. My own style is pretty
relaxed, low key, and demanding as hell. I have high standards of
performance for those I choose to fly with or give instruction to and
am relentless in demanding they meet those standards.
But, as you know, I am one of those pilots who has been everywhere and
done nearly everything of interest to guys like us.
Best personal regards and best wishes for a successful and healthy New
Year to all.
Ol Shy & Bashful

I went through a string of instructors on my way to my
license - mostly through no fault of my own. People came
and went, plus I moved about mid-way. My first (and the
best, in my opinion) was an old bomber pilot, and owned
the FBO. Then he started an airline, and had no time (was
chief pilot, too). One was a petty tyrant. Needless to say,
I didn't schedule with him again. I've found instructors
to be good, bad, indifferent - and rarely, really good.
This is true in all disciplines - not just aviation.

I'd say go ahead and fly with several - and see what the
differences are. Ask around to find out what others think
about the available instructors. Then when you find one
who is really good (and this will be quite obvious), hang
onto him or her. This likely will be hard to do - such
people are usually on their way to bigger and better things.

IMHO the ideal instructor is an old timer who has seen and
done it all, isn't going anywhere, and does it because he
or she loves it.

David Johnson

From the instructor point of view, I wholheartedly agree with you. With the
way the flight instruction system works, most CFI's only work for a couple
of years before moving on. Further, most have little or no instuctional
experience before becomming CFI's. When you consider the learning curves
associated with flying (remember that most CFI's are reasonably low time
pilots) and teaching (perhaps more complicated than flying), the chances of
you getting flawless instruction is rather small.

Flying with multiple instructors has advantages for both you and your
instructors. First, different instructors have different stregths and
weaknesses, so where one is weak, the other may be strong. (I used to teach
with another instructor who was the diametric opposite of me. It was a great
learning experience for both of us as we would get frequent feedback on how
we were teaching.. we used to go out for a beer every week, and call it our
"staff meeting". It's too bad he moved on.) Even if there are no quality
issues, you'll still learn a lot.

Remember that there is no single "right" way to fly. Your job, as a student,
is to learn a way that is both "not wrong" and that works for you. (Unless
you're planning to go professional, at which point you'll need to learn to
fly the "company" way.) By flying with several instructors, you'll get ideas
which you can use when developing "your way". (Hopefully your instructors
will teach at higher than the rote level, and will give you the latitude to
find a way that blends safety and your own personal style.)

Of course, all of this is based on the premise that the instructors actually
talk to each other.

Sorry for rambling.

-Rob

"gatt" wrote in message
...

Chief flight instructor and my primary instructor are both gone for the
week, so I've been flying with whatever low-time, newly-minted
Cessna-jockey
greenhorn flight instructor that answers the phone when I call to
schedule.
I've flown with four different instructors in the last two weeks.

I wholeheartedly recommend this. Each instructor has his own way of
explaining and demonstrating things, (working on complex rating and
commercial, part 141) as well as slight variations of technique and
procedure. The result is that I've been able to choose the methods which
work best and with which I'm most comfortable, AND check these things
against other instructors to make sure it's right.

The newer guys have a great sense of enthusiasm, and since the boss is out
of the shop, they've got great information about what it's REALLY like
flying as a CFI out of that FBO and things like, how many hours one might
expect to accumulate over the summer flying season.

I've had one instructor who's a Major in the Air Force and learned at the
academy, one who is a retired Marine and learned in the '60s, one who is
an
Embry Riddle graduate and one who earned his CFI wings from two of the
others and has only been instructing for a year. The four different
perspectives have made every flight not just practice, but a new learning
experience. My primary instructor is excellent, but I wish I'd have been
doing this to some degree all along!

-c