Sisteron SGP 2014

On Friday, May 16, 2014 1:34:57 PM UTC-5, Gary Ittner wrote:
wrote : - interesting to see how wing's loading was limited to 50 kg/m per square meter in favor of older ventus designs.... I think it was a direct attack on the Diana 2's... the V2/29/27's couldn't compete with it at 58kg/sqm. The maximum certificated wing loadings for the gliders at the Sisteron Grand Prix a LS 8 50.00 kg/sqm Ventus 2 54.29 kg/sqm ASW 27 55.56 kg/sqm Diana 2 57.87 kg/sqm ASG 29/15 59.80 kg/sqm If restricting all the gliders to the same 50 kg/sqm wing loading "hurts" the Diana 2, it hurts the ASG 29/15 even more. So how is this a direct attact on the Diana 2 ? Gary Ittner P7 "Have glider, will race"

- So if Ventus design is heavier than for instance Diana 2, which glider will run better at 50 kg/sqm?
Why is there a restriction in the first place, other than to favor certain glider types?

On Friday, May 16, 2014 3:08:55 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Friday, May 16, 2014 1:34:57 PM UTC-5, Gary Ittner wrote:

wrote : - interesting to see how wing's loading was limited to 50 kg/m per square meter in favor of older ventus designs... I think it was a direct attack on the Diana 2's... the V2/29/27's couldn't compete with it at 58kg/sqm. The maximum certificated wing loadings for the gliders at the Sisteron Grand Prix a LS 8 50.00 kg/sqm Ventus 2 54.29 kg/sqm ASW 27 55.56 kg/sqm Diana 2 57.87 kg/sqm ASG 29/15 59.80 kg/sqm If restricting all the gliders to the same 50 kg/sqm wing loading "hurts" the Diana 2, it hurts the ASG 29/15 even more. So how is this a direct attact on the Diana 2 ? Gary Ittner P7 "Have glider, will race"



- So if Ventus design is heavier than for instance Diana 2, which glider will run better at 50 kg/sqm?

Why is there a restriction in the first place, other than to favor certain glider types?

Does anyone know when the restriction was put in place before or after Diana 2 showed up?

On Friday, May 16, 2014 2:34:57 PM UTC-4, Gary Ittner wrote:
wrote :



- interesting to see how wing's loading was limited to 50 kg/m per square

meter in favor of older ventus designs...



I think it was a direct attack on the Diana 2's... the V2/29/27's couldn't

compete with it at 58kg/sqm.





The maximum certificated wing loadings for the gliders at the Sisteron Grand

Prix a



LS 8 50.00 kg/sqm



Ventus 2 54.29 kg/sqm



ASW 27 55.56 kg/sqm



Diana 2 57.87 kg/sqm



ASG 29/15 59.80 kg/sqm



If restricting all the gliders to the same 50 kg/sqm wing loading "hurts"

the Diana 2, it hurts the ASG 29/15 even more. So how is this a direct

attact on the Diana 2 ?



Gary Ittner P7

"Have glider, will race"

Not necessarily. The airfoil of Diana 2 was designed to climb very well at high wing loading. There is a Diana 2 design paper. It was a very interesting read.

I'd look at it a bit differently. I thought that the premise of the Grand Prix was to make it about pilot vs. pilot as opposed to a pure technology race. Since the majority of gliders have to be built to survive in a broad range of uses (i.e. not just optimized for high-end racing), the rule probably makes sense if that's the context. No?

Doesn't make much difference if you followed the race online -
you'd see that tatics played an important part in today's race.
Hauss took a significantly different line from the other guys coming
out of TP3 - Kawa was approx 100-150m below Hauss at the hill
just before Serres and delayed quite significantly following him up
to the 4th turning point, where Hauss had to climb up and over the
ridgeline to get to TP4 - then's when Hauss started to pull away..

I think Kawa has alluded in the past about about the wingloading
limit being imposed to stop the Diana romping away from the v2's ,
27 and 29's - especially in the mountains.

Simple solution - make everyone fly the same model of glider for
GP. Believe this was the idea a few years ago when the FAI
supposedly had some big media/TV guys interested in Gp's.

Maybe they ought to start linking up with some of the big players in
the gambling world?

Put them all in Duckhawks, with fancy colours?

ASG 29/15 59.80 kg/sqm
Yes, but you can't stand it on it's tip and circle up the side of a mountain at those wingloadings in anything else. The advantage is less in the flatlands.

Does anyone know when the restriction was put in place before or after Diana 2 showed up?
After.

Kawa had a chapter about it in his book. A snippet is on his website too.
http://skyfullofheat.com/ask-sebastian/why-diana-2/

"Andy K" wrote:
Not necessarily. The airfoil of Diana 2 was designed to climb very well at
high wing loading. There is a Diana 2 design paper. It was a very
interesting read.


Ah, I understand you. The ASG 29 airfoil was probably designed to climb
poorly at high wingloading.

The Sisteron World Grand Prix Final was not a race run according to FAI 15m
class rules, but a special race that in this case used a wing span limit of
15m and a wing loading limit of 50 kg/sqm. If the loading limit was an
attack on the Diana 2 and ASG 29 by not allowing them to use their loading
advantage over the Ventus 2, then was the span limit an attack on the Ventus
2 cxa and ASG 29 by not allowing them to use their span advantage over the
Diana 2? (Poor ASG 29; doubly attacked)

Some Grand Prix qualifying races have already been run using 18m gliders,
and I have heard a rumor that the next World Grand Prix Final may be 18m.
Will Diana 2 fans consider that a slap in the face?

If plantain and gkurek care to see a _real_ attack on the Diana 2, they
should seek out an article in Gliding International from a couple years ago,
in which former 15m European Champion Steven Raimond proposes the Diana 2 be
banned from international 15m competition and goes on to state his reasons
(note: I totally disagree with Steve's proposal, and have not heard of
anyone at the IGC seriously considering it).

Gary Ittner P7
"Have glider, will race"

On Sunday, May 11, 2014 1:15:09 AM UTC-4, GR8 wrote:
http://www.sgp.aero/final2014.aspx

The race was won by a great french glider pilot Didier Hauss, strictly on the merits of his superior tactic and his knowledge of local weather and terrain. Gliders didn't really matter.

On Friday, May 16, 2014 8:25:53 PM UTC-4, Gary Ittner wrote:
"Andy K" wrote:

Not necessarily. The airfoil of Diana 2 was designed to climb very well at

high wing loading. There is a Diana 2 design paper. It was a very

interesting read.





Ah, I understand you. The ASG 29 airfoil was probably designed to climb

poorly at high wingloading.



The Sisteron World Grand Prix Final was not a race run according to FAI 15m

class rules, but a special race that in this case used a wing span limit of

15m and a wing loading limit of 50 kg/sqm. If the loading limit was an

attack on the Diana 2 and ASG 29 by not allowing them to use their loading

advantage over the Ventus 2, then was the span limit an attack on the Ventus

2 cxa and ASG 29 by not allowing them to use their span advantage over the

Diana 2? (Poor ASG 29; doubly attacked)



Some Grand Prix qualifying races have already been run using 18m gliders,

and I have heard a rumor that the next World Grand Prix Final may be 18m.

Will Diana 2 fans consider that a slap in the face?



If plantain and gkurek care to see a _real_ attack on the Diana 2, they

should seek out an article in Gliding International from a couple years ago,

in which former 15m European Champion Steven Raimond proposes the Diana 2 be

banned from international 15m competition and goes on to state his reasons

(note: I totally disagree with Steve's proposal, and have not heard of

anyone at the IGC seriously considering it).



Gary Ittner P7

"Have glider, will race"

Gary, please don't quote me and then bring up an attack on Diana 2 in the same response as I had not made such statements.

The race was won by the better pilot and there is no doubt about it.

On Saturday, May 17, 2014 10:25:53 AM UTC+10, Gary Ittner wrote:
"Andy K" wrote:

Not necessarily. The airfoil of Diana 2 was designed to climb very well at

high wing loading. There is a Diana 2 design paper. It was a very

interesting read.

Ah, I understand you. The ASG 29 airfoil was probably designed to climb

poorly at high wingloading.

Or alternatively, the Diana 2 was designed to achieve superb climbing performance.
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