In Flight Malfunctions and Emergencies

Seems like a bit of collective might have helped too.
Bob

"Bob" wrote in message .. .
Seems like a bit of collective might have helped too.
Bob

Bob
No question they were pulling collective but how much and when? I
think if a pilot is only flying one type of machine and does a few
practice autos it should be a no brainer. But, if a pilot is flying
several different types or models, they can get into trouble real
easy. For example, I was doing a lot of work in a Hiller 12E, and then
jumped into a UH1. Tremendous difference in auto characteristics
especially at the bottom and flare attitude. At the time I was flying
the Hiller, a Bell 47 variant called a Tomcat MK6, a 206B, and the
UH1.
It was hard enough keeping the starting procedures straight let alone
the emergency ones! These were all in spraying operations at the time.
Add to that the mix of flying both an Ag Cat and a Cessna AgHusky and
it really can get confusing. I nearly wiped myself out trying to do a
helicopter spray turn in an Ag Cat when I had to jump from one into
the other. Yahoooo......!!
Rocky

After reading the Hiller & the big farmer story, I thought I'd
relate something funny that happened to me.

Last week I was doing a sightseeing tour over the reef. The pax
in the left seat was a tiny little gal who was maybe 100 lbs wet.
We'd been in the air for about 30 minutes and she seemed to be
enjoying herself a lot, taking pictures and commenting on all the
sea life. Well then it happened... we were about 100 ft off the
water over the reef when she announces that she's going to throw up.
I asked one of the pax in the back to hand a bag of some kind to her.
They handed her the small gym bag I carry spare life vests and
headsets in. I pulled her mic boom away from her face, and she
went for it.

On the first convulsion, she pushed the collective down. I'm
used to that by now, because no matter how many times I tell
people to stay away from it, they always seem to sit on it.
Then she did something no one's ever done. With each convulsion
forward she'd lean into the cyclic. She did it with such force
that it surprised the hell out of me. You would of thought I was
playing tug of war with a 220lb guy for how much force it took
to hold the stick steady. The convulsions were so loud that she
was breaking the squelch on MY mic. After about a minute of this
she announced that she felt much better, and we all had a pretty
good laugh.

This might not sound all that scary, but I was pretty nervous about
having an unpredictable spastic critter in the copilots seat
(no matter how pretty).

Bart

Rocky wrote:
Seems this area hasn't been touched in awhile and the group is getting
stale. Well, let me stir the pot and see who is still aboard.

one of the friend of a friend kind of story, reality to truth ?? not too far
off

the pilot dropped two engineering summer students off near the top of a
mountain to examine a communications shell for the day.
after they departed and removed their equip, hunkered down behind a rock.
pilot lifted off and established a circuit over the pax to make sure all was
ok (no arms flailing to notify they left anything onboard - like all good
pilots do)
what he saw was the pax rolling around on the ground, obviously in some sort
of distress, landed back at the same spot to find out what was wrong.
what had happened was that these two bush greenhorns had thought that bear
spray (pepper spray/mace) was applied like mosquito repellant, and suffered
the consiquence !!

Rocky wrote:
Seems this area hasn't been touched in awhile and the group is getting
stale. Well, let me stir the pot and see who is still aboard.

On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 18:46:19 -0500, Bart wrote:

On the first convulsion, she pushed the collective down. I'm
used to that by now, because no matter how many times I tell
people to stay away from it, they always seem to sit on it.
Then she did something no one's ever done. With each convulsion
forward she'd lean into the cyclic. She did it with such force
that it surprised the hell out of me. You would of thought I was
playing tug of war with a 220lb guy for how much force it took
to hold the stick steady.

WHY would you leave the copilot controls installed when carrying a non-pilot
passenger in that seat? What happened to you is the very reason I was told
that you want to ALWAYS remove controls unless the person sitting in that
seat is qualified to use them.

--
J Dana Eckart, PhD, PP-RH, KA4EVL | People who think that life couldn't be
Virginia Bioinformatics Institute | better lack vision, and those who think
| it couldn't be worse lack imagination.

"Dr. J Dana Eckart" wrote in message du...
On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 18:46:19 -0500, Bart wrote:

On the first convulsion, she pushed the collective down. I'm
used to that by now, because no matter how many times I tell
people to stay away from it, they always seem to sit on it.
Then she did something no one's ever done. With each convulsion
forward she'd lean into the cyclic. She did it with such force
that it surprised the hell out of me. You would of thought I was
playing tug of war with a 220lb guy for how much force it took
to hold the stick steady.

WHY would you leave the copilot controls installed when carrying a non-pilot
passenger in that seat? What happened to you is the very reason I was told
that you want to ALWAYS remove controls unless the person sitting in that
seat is qualified to use them.

Dr J.
In working machines we often didn't have time to remove the duals, or
it was just too much trouble to do so. I've always guarded the
controls carefully when I had ANYONE sitting where they could reach
the active controls. Yes it can get hairy at times but I've never had
one taken away from me nor ever lost control of one due to someone
else moving the controls accidently or on purpose. Got roughly 8000
hours working in rotorcraft spread out since 1967.
Flyinrock

WHY would you leave the copilot controls installed when carrying a non-pilot
passenger in that seat? What happened to you is the very reason I was told
that you want to ALWAYS remove controls unless the person sitting in that
seat is qualified to use them.


Removing the co-pilot controls requires an A&P, and theres frequently
not one available when you need one to do it. Most airplanes don't
have the ability to remove them at all. A friend of mine ground looped
in his Waco because a pax jammed his foot on a pedal in an attempt to
brace themselves during a landing. I'm avery guarded when theres a
non-pilot in the left seat, and the briefing always contains a series
of "don't touch this or else" messages. Non-pilots tend to listen to
messages like this because they're generally a little afraid of the
cockpit. My larger concerns are making sure that they don't carry
anything into the cockpit that might wind up jamming the controls,
and ensuring that they're very aware that the little red inflation
balls on their life vest can snag on the harness causing inadvertent
inflation.

Just because someone's a pilot doesnt keep'em from doing stupid stuff.
On a 1100nm ferry flight a month ago I took a friend of mine who's a
737 captain for Continental. Standard warnings issued during briefing,
he still managed to sit on the collective four times during the trip.
Each time he was really embarrassed and and it became the subject of a
ribbing or two since then.

Bell made it very clear in their training class that installation and
removal of the secondary controls was not an authorized pilot activity.
They also said the same is true of for doors. I'm not sure I agree with
either of these, but in the case of control installation I understand
why they have the policy; There was an accident where the PIC was in
the left seat and I think there was a beginner in the right. The cyclic
came out in-flight as a result of mis-installation, the result was
not good.

Bart

"Bart" wrote in message
...


WHY would you leave the copilot controls installed when carrying a
non-pilot
passenger in that seat? What happened to you is the very reason I was
told
that you want to ALWAYS remove controls unless the person sitting in
that
seat is qualified to use them.


Removing the co-pilot controls requires an A&P, and theres frequently
not one available when you need one to do it. Most airplanes don't
have the ability to remove them at all. A friend of mine ground looped
in his Waco because a pax jammed his foot on a pedal in an attempt to
brace themselves during a landing. I'm avery guarded when theres a
non-pilot in the left seat, and the briefing always contains a series
of "don't touch this or else" messages. Non-pilots tend to listen to
messages like this because they're generally a little afraid of the
cockpit. My larger concerns are making sure that they don't carry
anything into the cockpit that might wind up jamming the controls,
and ensuring that they're very aware that the little red inflation
balls on their life vest can snag on the harness causing inadvertent
inflation.

Just because someone's a pilot doesnt keep'em from doing stupid stuff.
On a 1100nm ferry flight a month ago I took a friend of mine who's a
737 captain for Continental. Standard warnings issued during briefing,
he still managed to sit on the collective four times during the trip.
Each time he was really embarrassed and and it became the subject of a
ribbing or two since then.

Bell made it very clear in their training class that installation and
removal of the secondary controls was not an authorized pilot activity.
They also said the same is true of for doors. I'm not sure I agree with
either of these, but in the case of control installation I understand
why they have the policy; There was an accident where the PIC was in
the left seat and I think there was a beginner in the right. The cyclic
came out in-flight as a result of mis-installation, the result was
not good.

Bart

I sure see your point Bart. Our local pilot/owner is an A&P which
probably explains his ability to fly a piston helo for fun since he can do
the maintenance himself. Whenever he flys a passenger for fun he still
leaves the controls in both middle and left seat since it's probably more
trouble to remove them and possibly more dangerous too. I was intently
watching the cyclic and pedal movement during my flight around the patch
which after the stories I''ve heard here probably worried the pilot to no
end. He asked me in a a deadly serious tone to not touch anythingG Of
course all I wanted to do was get a visual clue of just how much or little
the controls were moved in flight and compare it to my limited time as a
fixed wing passenger. Thanks to all of you for telling about some
wonderful and scary flying experiences! Larry

On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 05:27:30 -0500, Bart wrote:

WHY would you leave the copilot controls installed when carrying a non-pilot
passenger in that seat? What happened to you is the very reason I was told
that you want to ALWAYS remove controls unless the person sitting in that
seat is qualified to use them.

Removing the co-pilot controls requires an A&P, and theres frequently
not one available when you need one to do it. Most airplanes don't
have the ability to remove them at all.

Interesting. My helicopter time is all in R-22s and the controls are
relatively easy to remove and as far as I know, can be done by the PIC.
[I haven't flown in quite some time.]

How common is it for aircraft with removable controls to require an A&P
to do the removal/installation?

--
J Dana Eckart, PhD, PP-RH, KA4EVL | People who think that life couldn't be
Virginia Bioinformatics Institute | better lack vision, and those who think
| it couldn't be worse lack imagination.

My flight manual does not specifically state that removal is prohibited
or allowed. The FARS state which activities may be performed by a pilot,
and if I remember correctly they disallow alteration of a flight
control. I'm not 100% certain, but my interpretation would be that no
matter how easy it is to remove them or how common the practice of
it being done by a pilot, it legally requires an A&P.

Bart

Dr. J Dana Eckart wrote:
Interesting. My helicopter time is all in R-22s and the controls are
relatively easy to remove and as far as I know, can be done by the PIC.
[I haven't flown in quite some time.]

How common is it for aircraft with removable controls to require an A&P
to do the removal/installation?