Ads-b and sailplanes

On Wednesday, March 25, 2015 at 8:03:03 PM UTC-7, Bill T wrote:
Darryl, I've been looking and for most standard certificated aircraft, not experimental, it takes STC to install ADS-B equipment. A couple of STCs I have found do not list the Piper Pawnee, PA-25. Any Pawnee I have seen is registered under Restricted category. Any ideas?
BillT

Bill, it does not directly take an exact STC to install an ADS-B Out. But the FAA does wants an STC to act as the basis for a field approval. What I believe they mostly care about is the GPS, ADS-B Out device and required peripherals (e.g. control heads etc.) and wiring interconnect are known to work together/have been though a proper STC process. (and to see the horror involved there look at AC 20-165A).

The first FAA clarification that a field approval was acceptable was this http://download.aopa.org/aircraft/121105faa-ads-b.pdf

Bottom line is if you had to do this now for some reason, then I'd have a read of this stuff, but basically get out you check book and find a good avionics facility and talk with them and/or the manufacturer and/or and the local FSDO if needed (a good shop should really do all that for you), about what is possible/how exactly to get field approval. If they have not done a field approval based ADS-B Out installs of similar equipment I would *not* want to be the first customer lined up with my aircraft to have them do this.

A list of approved/STC'ed pairings of ADS-B Out and GPS sources is included in this newsletter https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/ga/media...stallation.pdf (may be slightly out of date).

But it is just way too early today, I would wait until manufactures are (hopefully) offering affordable transponder/1090ES Out with built in GPS (which AFAIK will still need to be fully TSO-ed for a restricted category aircraft, but the integrated install still will make things easier). And let the manufacturer of that help your avionics shop with how to get that install field approved.

Thanks!
Just trying to keep up with the development of systems and processes, and not be last in line in 2019 at the avionics shop.
BillT

On Wednesday, March 25, 2015 at 8:03:03 PM UTC-7, Bill T wrote:
Darryl, I've been looking and for most standard certificated aircraft, not experimental, it takes STC to install ADS-B equipment. A couple of STCs I have found do not list the Piper Pawnee, PA-25. Any Pawnee I have seen is registered under Restricted category. Any ideas?
BillT

Bill

Just as a heads up, here is another Mode-S/1090ES Out transponder coming with internal GPS. http://ipadpilotnews.com/2015/04/new...-b-transponder and https://www.appareo.com/aviation/ads-b-out

Details are very sparse, but it is apparently intended for install in certified aircraft, at a ~$3,500 unit price.

I am a bit skeptical about the button only UI, especially for use in turbulence with the ON/OFF/ALT/VFR/etc buttons so close to each other. Anyhow hopefully part of a trend of better product availability for those tow planes that need to meet the 2020 ADS-B carriage mandate.

(and for others I would not assume this is at all suitable for install in gliders, too large, and it is likely has too high a power consumption).

Darryl

On Thursday, April 9, 2015 at 1:03:26 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Wednesday, March 25, 2015 at 8:03:03 PM UTC-7, Bill T wrote:
Darryl, I've been looking and for most standard certificated aircraft, not experimental, it takes STC to install ADS-B equipment. A couple of STCs I have found do not list the Piper Pawnee, PA-25. Any Pawnee I have seen is registered under Restricted category. Any ideas?
BillT

Bill

Just as a heads up, here is another Mode-S/1090ES Out transponder coming with internal GPS. http://ipadpilotnews.com/2015/04/new...-b-transponder and https://www.appareo.com/aviation/ads-b-out


I thought the following excerpt from the press release was interesting, and consistent with the view that installation cost and complexity are significant factors that might advantage 1090ES over UAT even for aircraft that aren't required to carry 1090ES by rule:

"Appareo also recognized that the cost and complexity to install many of the existing ADS-B Out transponders is exceedingly high, so they focused on developing a system that would be simple for avionics shop to install. Stratus ESG connects directly to the existing belly-mounted transponder antenna and also includes a WAAS GPS antenna. For typical single-engine piston aircraft, Stratus ESG will require approximately half the installation time as compared to a remote-mounted 978 Mhz UAT ADS-B Out system."

Thanks!
That is a promising option.
As for the buttons so close, check out the Garmin transponders with all the buttons in a circle.

BillT

At 02:01 26 March 2015, Darryl Ramm wrote:
Maybe next time try searching r.a.s. before asking a question. You
would
have found this has been covered in depth here recently...



is there a way to search r.a.s for keywords?

On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 5:30:07 PM UTC-7, Andrew wrote:
At 02:01 26 March 2015, Darryl Ramm wrote:
Maybe next time try searching r.a.s. before asking a question. You
would
have found this has been covered in depth here recently...



is there a way to search r.a.s for keywords?

Remember that r.a.s is a USENET forum which means a distributed network of servers carrying all this stuff, and what you can or can't do with messages is largely dependent on the client you are using to access that USENET newsgroup. It looks like are posting from the Glider Pilot Network, I'm not sure what is provided there. Maybe others can help you.

Most USENET NNTP clients (like Mozilla Thunderbird) provide good local search capabilities, which means you can search on just about anything in the messages that are downloaded to your client. It can also search on things based on header fields on the server. And you can also do some pretty complex filtering based on fields, which may be useful for finding posts.

Google Groups also provides good Web based search. Go to the "Search for topics" field and pull down the small down-arrow. There is more search capabilities hidden there... make sure you scroll all the way down in the search window that appears, you can search for keywords in the whole article using the "Has the words" field, that is not just searching the Subject field as the UI might seem to suggest.

Really advanced search is available to folks who have direct access to a USENET server. and want to custom write code :-) But that type of search is rarely needed.

from AC 20-165A:

(c) The ADS-B equipment can only allow an anonymous 24-bit address selection if
the Mode 3/A code is set to 1200

I wonder if they will add 1202 as well (see http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/m.../N7110.577.pdf)

No they will not. This was done to largely placate AOPA and others who lobbied the FAA. Those organizations really should have been worrying more about fundamental issues with how broken the whole dual link approach is.... Instead of stuff like this or prioritizing keeping aging Mode C transponders in use. And the anonymous mode only applies to UAT Out. Any 1090ES capable transponder is already transmitting the aircraft's ICAO address and that cannot be disabled (try it and you will likely get a visit from the FAA). And if glider owners ever want to install any of this mess it is 1090ES Out not UAT out they should install -- for compatibility with PowerFLARM, and since you need a transponder anyhow for TCAS compatibility.

Amazing how big a mess the FAA has made of the ADS-B thing isn't it? It seems like it had the potential to streamline things and provide useful situational awareness about other traffic with a relatively simple and inexpensive device - sort of a like a universal implementation of FLARM-like technology in all aircraft. So much for that.

My club held off on FLARM for a couple of years as some members thought that ADS-B would make it redundant. We're now installing it to club ships and the tow planes as funds allow and many of the privately owned gliders have it. In my case all it took was one flight to be convinced of the usefulness of FLARM and I was a bit skeptical of its value in our location at first.