Emergency instrumentation for cloud encounters

On Monday, April 20, 2015 at 6:35:42 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Monday, April 20, 2015 at 1:55:12 PM UTC-4, wrote:
why not have one of these:

http://store-vllhq23n.mybigcommerce....-in-enclosure/
http://store-vllhq23n.mybigcommerce....dback-systems/

'Wings level upright' and 'wings level inverted' gives the same reading on this instrument.

So? You'll never get wings-level-inverted if you are paying attention to the readout. How do you think Lindbergh got across the Atlantic?

S

I think our wires are a little crossed. That's still not a cold start, right? The AHRS is already on.

Anyway my main point is--

If you are flying with nothing, consider the solid state turn rate indicator that I linked to.

If you are flying with a vario-based AHRS-based artificial horizon, that's wonderful. But you might want to consider supplementing with a self-contained solid-state turn rate indicator in case the system goes belly-up or your battery dies.

Back to square one-- an experienced, highly trained, ex-military pilot blew up his sailplane in cloud in wave. I'm sure he never meant to enter the cloud. Wave cloud is squirrely. Who can argue that he would not have been much better off with some sort of turn rate indicator, than with nothing? I'm sure he had lots of partial-panel practice and experience, or at least simulated experience. If you want to argue that an artificial horizon would be better yet-- great. I agree.

S

On Monday, April 20, 2015 at 6:41:50 PM UTC-5, waremark wrote:
My LX 9000 with v9 is up within 2 or 3 seconds if I switch to a page which shows it while in a thermalling turn. I understand Dynons and other solid state horizons do the same. Why would you ever bring it up when in a spiral dive? I have no reason to doubt that it would perform correctly, but it sounds rather unlikely if equipped with an A-H to enter IMC without having switched it on.

On Monday, April 20, 2015 at 4:34:11 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:

I'd buy one of those turn coordinators if someone would buy my
TruTrac...

Dan Marotta

I'll keep my TruTrac. It doesn't have pitch, but with instrument training, it has what it takes with a familiar AH like display to keep wings level or to do a turn. I leave it off unless in "the vicinity" of clouds. When powered up, it "erects" in a couple of seconds, even in the middle of a steep turn. I'll add the Butterfly - redundancy.

On Monday, April 20, 2015 at 11:25:37 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Monday, April 20, 2015 at 6:35:42 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Monday, April 20, 2015 at 1:55:12 PM UTC-4, wrote:
why not have one of these:

http://store-vllhq23n.mybigcommerce....-in-enclosure/
http://store-vllhq23n.mybigcommerce....dback-systems/

'Wings level upright' and 'wings level inverted' gives the same reading on this instrument.

So? You'll never get wings-level-inverted if you are paying attention to the readout.

I'd expect that it would be rather easy to get inverted in a cloud in mountain wave.

In article ,
, son_of_flubber says...

On Monday, April 20, 2015 at 11:25:37 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Monday, April 20, 2015 at 6:35:42 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Monday, April 20, 2015 at 1:55:12 PM UTC-4, wrote:
why not have one of these:

http://store-vllhq23n.mybigcommerce....-in-enclosure/
http://store-vllhq23n.mybigcommerce....dback-systems/

'Wings level upright' and 'wings level inverted' gives the same reading on this instrument.

So? You'll never get wings-level-inverted if you are paying attention to the readout.

I'd expect that it would be rather easy to get inverted in a cloud in mountain wave.

"C"FIT is still yer biggest problem.

--
Duncan.

WARNING: SIDETRACK--TANGENT--WAY OFF COURSE HERE

On Monday, April 20, 2015 at 6:35:42 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:


'Wings level upright' and 'wings level inverted' gives the same reading on this instrument.

Actually it's worse than that-- the indicated turn rate (yaw rate) drops off toward zero as as the bank angle approaches 90 degrees, in which case the glider is in an extreme diving corkscrew or helix...

But again, you aren't ever going to end up there if you are watching the instrument.

In the fully inverted case, if the G-loading is still positive-- which it will be unless you are pushing the stick forward-- you won't be inverted for long. But during those few seconds that you are, if you deviate even slightly from wings-level, then if you react to the indication of the yaw rate indicator, you'll roll the aircraft toward wings-level upright. That's a good thing! Example: inverted wings-level but positively loaded, left wing drops, glider is now in a turn toward right wingtip, instrument shows right yaw, pilot gives left roll input which is indeed the shortest path toward upright. The only problem is that as the bank angle approaches 90 degrees, again the yaw rate drops toward zero...

But again, you aren't ever going to end up there if you are watching the instrument.

That's all a side-track. Let's not lose sight of the fact that the history of soaring includes many many hundreds or thousands of hours, collectively, of flying in clouds with the aid of a turn rate indicator and no artificial horizon.

S

On Monday, April 20, 2015 at 11:24:32 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:


I'd expect that it would be rather easy to get inverted in a cloud in mountain wave.

If you hit the rotor all bets are off. But I've successfully used the instrument as my primary reference in cloud in both thermal and wave lift. S

This discussion is veering awfully close to transforming into this question; "Is partial-panel flight, i.e. flight in clouds with a turn rate indicator but no artificial horizon instrument, even possible?"

I think that's been settled...

On Monday, April 20, 2015 at 11:43:17 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Let's not lose sight of the fact that the history of soaring includes many many hundreds or thousands of hours, collectively, of flying in clouds with the aid of a turn rate indicator and no artificial horizon.

S

In article ,
, says...

WARNING: SIDETRACK--TANGENT--WAY OFF COURSE HERE

On Monday, April 20, 2015 at 6:35:42 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:


'Wings level upright' and 'wings level inverted' gives the same
reading on this instrument.

Actually it's worse than that-- the indicated turn rate (yaw rate)
drops off toward zero as as the bank angle approaches 90 degrees, in
which case the glider is in an extreme diving corkscrew or helix...

But again, you aren't ever going to end up there if you are watching
the instrument.

In the fully inverted case, if the G-loading is still positive-- which
it will be unless you are pushing the stick forward-- you won't be
inverted for long. But during those few seconds that you are, if you
deviate even slightly from wings-level, then if you react to the
indication of the yaw rate indicator, you'll roll the aircraft toward
wings-level upright. That's a good thing! Example: inverted
wings-level but positively loaded, left wing drops, glider is now ina
turn toward right wingtip, instrument shows right yaw, pilot gives
left roll input which is indeed the shortest path toward upright. The
only problem is that as the bank angle approaches 90 degrees, again
the yaw rate drops toward zero...

But again, you aren't ever going to end up there if you are watching
the instrument.

That's all a side-track. Let's not lose sight of the fact that the
history of soaring includes many many hundreds or thousands of hours,
collectively, of flying in clouds with the aid of a turn rate
indicator and no artificial horizon.

I guess the big question is, can you recover from an unusual attitude on
limited instruments (no AH). I know I can, but it requires practice.
And it's not fantastically *easy*.

If you haven't done it, get under the hood with an instructor. And did
I say it's a lot of fun? It is, great fun. Could save ya butt one day.

--
Duncan.

For vfr pilot with no training I would install simple electronic AH (Dynon, Gemini etc.) for the purpose of keeping your glider right side up and getting out of imc safely. You can fly whole day with T&B only, but it requires some training.