Downwind to final turns

On Thursday, June 4, 2015 at 7:18:57 PM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Thursday, June 4, 2015 at 7:26:59 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:

I don't guess I need to worry much about Viet Cong
trying to shoot me down these days...

I'm waiting for someone to mistake a silently thermaling glider for an FBI surveillance aircraft.

You don't have to wait. Shooters have been putting holes in low flying airplanes since there were airplanes.

"It seems like I could shallow the bank"

That's the only thing I see in your posts that might be a concern - depending on how shallow a turn you mean. Writings by Tom Knauff and Derek Piggott as well as the standard procedure taught according to my national organization specify a well banked turn on base and final. The slow rate of turn in a shallow bank can encourage over application of rudder and we know where that can lead. It's also damn near impossible to get most gliders to stall from a well banked turn. In every one I've flown if you fly at the recommended minimum approach speed with full brakes (on many gliders denoted by the yellow triangle mark on the ASI these days) and then roll in to a 40 degree or so banked turn you can then pull the elevator back to the stop without provoking a stall - they run out of elevator authority before they come close to a stall. I've tried it in all the club gliders except the DG300 we just bought (haven't had a chance as it's usually being flown by someone else when I've finished flying my own ship)

At my field we don't have much room in the pattern because a 5000 foot high steep mountain ridge parallel to the runway is very close to the edge of the field. The result is that our base leg is pretty short, lasting not much more than a few seconds so we are almost doing a single 180 to final really. It's tight enough though that the turns have to be well banked. We've never once had a stall-spin on base/final in decades of operation even though our overall safety record is average at best. I sometimes wonder if the type of circuit forced upon us by geography might be part of the reason why.

There is much more to this, and many other safety related subjects, that are not well described in newsgroup sound bites. The reality is the first few seconds of every flight and the last few seconds of every flight are statistically the most hazardous, and require adequate pilot knowledge and skills.

A few dollars invested in popular glider flight training manuals will help ensure your safety and enjoyment of the sport.

It is said, "If you don't have it here. . ." (pointing to head.)

"You can't have it here . . ." (pointing to hand holding the control stick.)

Tom Knauff

Well said!

If you've flown 90 deg patterns for all or most of your flying career
and switch to a 180 deg descending turn, you'll be less safe. The
reverse is also true.

On 6/5/2015 7:23 AM, wrote:
There is much more to this, and many other safety related subjects, that are not well described in newsgroup sound bites. The reality is the first few seconds of every flight and the last few seconds of every flight are statistically the most hazardous, and require adequate pilot knowledge and skills.

A few dollars invested in popular glider flight training manuals will help ensure your safety and enjoyment of the sport.

It is said, "If you don't have it here. . ." (pointing to head.)

"You can't have it here . . ." (pointing to hand holding the control stick.)

Tom Knauff

--
Dan Marotta

On Thu, 4 Jun 2015 18:32:33 -0700 (PDT), Bill D
wrote:

On Thursday, June 4, 2015 at 7:18:57 PM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Thursday, June 4, 2015 at 7:26:59 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:

I don't guess I need to worry much about Viet Cong
trying to shoot me down these days...

I'm waiting for someone to mistake a silently thermaling glider for an FBI surveillance aircraft.

You don't have to wait. Shooters have been putting holes in low flying airplanes since there were airplanes.

The Goodyear Blimps pick up holes all the time.

On Thursday, June 4, 2015 at 7:36:07 AM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:

On the open bird I put in flaps on downwind and leave them alone, schempp,
on the 18 AS, with larger flap deflection I only put in landing flap on final when
landing is assured,Thoughts comments, different way of doing things?

And why is a landing not assured while on downwind?

I fly a ASH-26E and try to fly a steep pattern, so will often apply full flap on downwind or base, and rarely on final if for some reason the pattern was flown lower than normal.

A classic airplane pattern is to chop the throttle abeam the numbers and the steep approach makes it very easy to judge a precision touchdown.

5Z

I guess "landing assured" was a bad choice of words, should have said short final. I am asking because I wanted know what other pi,it's were doing. The Schempp gliders I had flown do not have nearly as much flap/ drag in landing configuration. I used to fly a Cessna 340 with huge split flaps, and the way to fly that bird was to put on the last bit of flap on short final (landing assured).

To say that there is only one safe way to land is ludicrous.

The stall/spin in the pattern issue isn't the type of landing pattern, it's poor judgment (eg misjudging the wind gradient, arriving short, etc) that exposes poor skills (inside rudder, pulling elevator, failure to maintain 1..5Vso, improper spoiler use, etc)

if you can't do 45, downwinds, base, 180s, 270s, overhead/Racetrack, crosswinds and tailwinds, and land where you want you're a machine and not a pilot, no matter how many 500km days you've had this week.

The issue for glider pilots is that the sport and community rewards competitions and OLC points, not doing pattern work. Pattern work is for students. And doing pattern work is what improves landing skill.

Next time your the only one in the pattern at your home field on a calmer day, try some thing different

With 343 OLC flights logged this season, I agree that most pilots could use more landing practice.

Boggs