US National & World Records Require US Pilots to Hold FAI SportingLicense issued by NAA

Charlie,

That used to be the case. That is no longer the case. An FAI Sporting License is no longer part of SSA Membership.

On Friday, September 4, 2015 at 5:54:17 PM UTC-4, Tony wrote:
Charlie,

That used to be the case. That is no longer the case. An FAI Sporting License is no longer part of SSA Membership.

OK, so I learned something new today.
Thanks.

I believe that the SSA is one of the very small number of national bodies representing gliding in this world that has handed over record keeping at a national level to some other body. In our case the National Aeronautic Association, which survives by charging fees to any group that will bow to its bureaucracy.
The SSA does precious little for its members (the insurance for instance is a commercial group deal that could just as well work as a group policy for glider pilots without the SSA element). It is about to raise dues again, it continues to spend more than the membership dues provide, living on money subscribed to the Eagle Fund and the Foundation. It loses money on such boondoggles as merchandizing. It justifies staffing levels by holding conventions (and would like to go to annual conventions) at which it barely scrapes into the black yet when, back in the day, clubs ran them they made real money.
Take a look if you can bear the thought at the way those in charge nominate each other for the major awards.
Why does this happen? Because the membership looks the other way, ignores reality. Or leaves the SSA entirely (membership is steadily declining and will do so faster each time dues go up).
Allowing the NAA to continue to hold onto record keeping at the National and International level and charge lots to those who fly these magnificent flights is but a symptom of the state of the Association. But until members get involved (now there is a laugh and a half) nothing is going to change.
Will the last one a member please remember to turn out the lights.





On Friday, September 4, 2015 at 11:39:58 AM UTC-6, wrote:
An FAI Sporting License is required for US National and World Records.

One can be applied for and obtained from the National Aeronautic Association ("NAA") at the following link:

https://naa.aero/membership/membership-application

An FAI Sporting License is required for all US National & World Record attempts and all FAI sanctioned events and competitions. Sporting License applicants must be a member of NAA and/or a current member of the appropriate NAA Air Sport Organization (for gliding this is the Soaring Society of America).

An annual FAI Sporting License can be obtained by an SSA Member for $45 without paying for membership in the NAA (see the link above).

or

An FAI Sporting License can be obtained free or charge for those who want to be members of the NAA; the annual cost of membership in the NAA is $50. Glider pilots participating in competitions and/or record setting activities can receive a one-year FAI Sporting License (free of charge), but must complete and application for the sporting license (see the link above).

Due to FAI policy changes, you must apply for a Sporting License at least 14 days prior to your record attempt or competition. Applications submitted less than 14 days prior to the event may not be processed in time to allow you to participate.

AFAIK, FAI only recognizes one National Aero Club per country. IIRC, NAA was one of the charter members of the FAI. NAA delegated soaring badges and records to the SSA. Though other nations perhaps allow their national gliding organizations to manage badges and records without fees to their national aero clubs, we currently don't have that arrangement. Should we? Perhaps. I know there was some review of this following a complaint, but it's not a current action item. I've asked Denise if we have a file and archive on the NAA/SSA relationship and fees schedules. Presumably other competitive aero sports have similar fees and requirements within their organizations.

Frank Whiteley

On Friday, September 4, 2015 at 9:25:07 PM UTC-6, howard banks wrote:
I believe that the SSA is one of the very small number of national bodies representing gliding in this world that has handed over record keeping at a national level to some other body. In our case the National Aeronautic Association, which survives by charging fees to any group that will bow to its bureaucracy.
The SSA does precious little for its members (the insurance for instance is a commercial group deal that could just as well work as a group policy for glider pilots without the SSA element). It is about to raise dues again, it continues to spend more than the membership dues provide, living on money subscribed to the Eagle Fund and the Foundation. It loses money on such boondoggles as merchandizing. It justifies staffing levels by holding conventions (and would like to go to annual conventions) at which it barely scrapes into the black yet when, back in the day, clubs ran them they made real money.
Take a look if you can bear the thought at the way those in charge nominate each other for the major awards.
Why does this happen? Because the membership looks the other way, ignores reality. Or leaves the SSA entirely (membership is steadily declining and will do so faster each time dues go up).
Allowing the NAA to continue to hold onto record keeping at the National and International level and charge lots to those who fly these magnificent flights is but a symptom of the state of the Association. But until members get involved (now there is a laugh and a half) nothing is going to change..
Will the last one a member please remember to turn out the lights.





On Friday, September 4, 2015 at 11:39:58 AM UTC-6, wrote:
An FAI Sporting License is required for US National and World Records.

One can be applied for and obtained from the National Aeronautic Association ("NAA") at the following link:

https://naa.aero/membership/membership-application

An FAI Sporting License is required for all US National & World Record attempts and all FAI sanctioned events and competitions. Sporting License applicants must be a member of NAA and/or a current member of the appropriate NAA Air Sport Organization (for gliding this is the Soaring Society of America).

An annual FAI Sporting License can be obtained by an SSA Member for $45 without paying for membership in the NAA (see the link above).

or

An FAI Sporting License can be obtained free or charge for those who want to be members of the NAA; the annual cost of membership in the NAA is $50. Glider pilots participating in competitions and/or record setting activities can receive a one-year FAI Sporting License (free of charge), but must complete and application for the sporting license (see the link above).

Due to FAI policy changes, you must apply for a Sporting License at least 14 days prior to your record attempt or competition. Applications submitted less than 14 days prior to the event may not be processed in time to allow you to participate.

On Sat, 05 Sep 2015 14:45:39 -0700, Frank Whiteley wrote:

Presumably other competitive aero sports have similar fees and
requirements within their organizations.

You could do worse than ask the Academy Of Model Aeronautics (AMA), or
get a glider pilot who also flies models to do so, since all members of
US World Championship model flying teams require FAI licenses.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

I usually make a few record attempts each year. I pay the fee in the spring and have always been quite irritated at having do so. Rarely do I have a record accomplishment to submit yet each year my bank account is slimmer nonetheless. I would like to see this changed for sure.

The hierarchy of FAI to SSA has to run through the NAA. This is the way records are administered Internationally. The FAI only recognizes records that have been submitted through each country's National Aero Club. In the US, that is the NAA. It is not possible for a soaring record to be submitted directly to the FAI, unless it goes from the SSA to the NAA and then to the FAI.

As far as the FAI Sporting License, that is pretty much up to the individual discipline (AMA, SSA, USHPA, etc.) as to whether it is part of the membership dues. The cost is probably prohibitive for the SSA to offer to everybody, so if you want records, you have to pay the SSA $45, or $50 to the NAA. That is for a one-year license, so the 14 day argument is irrelevant. Apply at the beginning of the season and don't worry about it.

In most parts of the country, that is about the cost of a tow, or less. Other fees can definitely be prohibitive, so record flying may not be for everyone, just as sanctioned competition does not necessarily appeal to all pilots. The cost can be a major barrier to these endeavors, but asking the rest of the sport to subsidize a few pilots' efforts is also inappropriate.

So then, we all agree that the NAA is a required middle man. Being a required middle man that doesn't have to do much is a comfy place to be. It's a position likely to be defended vigorously.

The theory of bureaucracy states that when no one questions the system, a bureaucrat's fee increases until someone finally does. The original poster is on the right track to question the system. I applaud the effort to the extent that it gets followed through.

On Monday, September 7, 2015 at 11:38:31 AM UTC-7, Steve Koerner wrote:
So then, we all agree that the NAA is a required middle man. Being a required middle man that doesn't have to do much is a comfy place to be. It's a position likely to be defended vigorously.

The theory of bureaucracy states that when no one questions the system, a bureaucrat's fee increases until someone finally does. The original poster is on the right track to question the system. I applaud the effort to the extent that it gets followed through.

I'm guessing the NAA doesn't have a good understanding of any economic principles of pricing like simple elasticity of demand, cross elasticity, bundled pricing and market segmentation. I can think of a dozen pricing models to $50/year, 14 days in advance - which may be as punitive an approach as one can imagine. Alternative approaches could easily make users more satisfied AND earn the NAA more money. Bureaucratic monopolists, however, hardly ever think about how to make more money by making people more satisfied.

No national/international record flying for me. I hope the NAA is making good use of the $450 or so they collect every year.

9B

On Monday, September 7, 2015 at 2:21:09 PM UTC-7, Andy Blackburn wrote:
On Monday, September 7, 2015 at 11:38:31 AM UTC-7, Steve Koerner wrote:
So then, we all agree that the NAA is a required middle man. Being a required middle man that doesn't have to do much is a comfy place to be. It's a position likely to be defended vigorously.

The theory of bureaucracy states that when no one questions the system, a bureaucrat's fee increases until someone finally does. The original poster is on the right track to question the system. I applaud the effort to the extent that it gets followed through.

I'm guessing the NAA doesn't have a good understanding of any economic principles of pricing like simple elasticity of demand, cross elasticity, bundled pricing and market segmentation. I can think of a dozen pricing models to $50/year, 14 days in advance - which may be as punitive an approach as one can imagine. Alternative approaches could easily make users more satisfied AND earn the NAA more money. Bureaucratic monopolists, however, hardly ever think about how to make more money by making people more satisfied.

No national/international record flying for me. I hope the NAA is making good use of the $450 or so they collect every year.

9B

Monopoly or monarchical tyranny.

And besides we had a man who has spoken to the serfs and we think they are all very happy. How is your champagne? Cold enough?