Tow Tracker

On Monday, March 7, 2016 at 5:49:23 AM UTC-8, Giaco wrote:
I believe it could work with multiple tow planes, you would have a single cell phone connected to Bluetooth receivers in each plane.

While flarm is an option, the majority of club aircraft I have flown in do not have flarm, and with a focus on the ability to track a pilot, glider, and tow height, this makes using flarm too cost-prohibitive, and non-specific to the pilot.

The other goal is to take recording burden off of the tow pilots. Which is why you would ideally have the tow purely be involved in the process for recording the tow height.

There are certainly a lot of interesting flarm options out there though, thanks for the responses. Dittolog seems like a great product for the flarm line, but will also cost the club $30 per pilot per year, which seems a bit steep to me as well.

Chris

Maybe it's about time those club aircraft were fitted with FLARM, and this additional benefit help justify/fund that. Maybe that is better than focusing effort onto non-FLARM things. Nothing is free, hardware, the cost of people time and hassle for implementing anything, including testing out new unproven software and workflows, losing track of charges etc. is pretty real.

Maybe it's about time those club aircraft were fitted with FLARM, and this additional benefit help justify/fund that. Maybe that is better than focusing effort onto non-FLARM things. Nothing is free, hardware, the cost of people time and hassle for implementing anything, including testing out new unproven software and workflows, losing track of charges etc. is pretty real.

Perhaps, but that is still expensive, and does not solve the problem of no knowing who is being charged for the flight...

There are multiple examples of programs that the community has put together that are not cost-prohibitive, proprietary solutions...XCSoar for one. I understand there is significant development time and effort required, but I believe that is fully worthwhile if it would be of benefit to the large number of small clubs that struggle with tow logs.

Somehow the name of the pilot flying the glider has to be included so he/she can be charged. How do you do that ?
Dan
On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 9:57:57 PM UTC-5, Giaco wrote:
I have started tinkering around with the idea of developing a Tow-tracking for clubs to use that would not interfere with operations yet still be able to provide an upgrade to having a dedicated logger try and confirm release altitudes.

My current thought is to have a cell phone app that talks to bluetooth sensors mounted in the towplanes. The Wing runner/logger would enter in the pilot/glider info, then transmit the data to the tow. The towplane unit would take that log file and record the tow height (assuming max altitude) and save it to the file, which would then be transmitted back to the logger when the tow lands, and the next pilot log is entered. The logger should be able to upload all the files at the end of the day, with accurate tow heights without asking the tow pilots to record it.

Thoughts? Potential Problems? Interested in helping? The objective of this would that it would be a free app for the community at large with the hardware designs published as well.

I understand there will be the standard cry of "we have always used a pen and paper and it worked just fine," but that isn't the intent of the question being posed..

On Monday, March 7, 2016 at 8:39:59 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Somehow the name of the pilot flying the glider has to be included so he/she can be charged. How do you do that ?
Dan

Dan,
That is one of my biggest drivers for not using FLARM. The way i envision the process...

1) Rope Runner uses dedicated "club" cell phone and app to enter in pilot info, glider info, and selects which towplane is coming (if more than one).

2) When the tow comes within bluetooth range, the phone makes the connection to the tow tracker, and the pilots transmits either the data or a unique id for that flight to the tow.

3) The towplane launches, with either an onboard GPS or simple barograph and records the flight. On landing, the device calculates the maximum altitude (or tow time as some clubs use) and assigns that value in a packet with the rest of the flight data.

4) When the towplane comes back into range and the rope runner re-connects, the completed log is downloaded to the handheld device and the next partial log is sent to the tow.

Thus both the device memory and handheld (cellphone) should both have records of the flights, but the app should be able to upload via .csv or other formats quickly at the end of the day (or real time if you really want). I suppose it could be a laptop or any other sort of device that acts as the master/server.

It is quickly becoming apparent that the logging responsibility varies greatly among different clubs!

In our club (and probably all other clubs)there is a dedicated time keeper that uses a program on a tablet to record pilot name and all other information.
With your idea this function can be eliminated. makes sense to me !
When can we see the app working ??
Dan

On Monday, March 7, 2016 at 10:08:13 PM UTC-5, Giaco wrote:
On Monday, March 7, 2016 at 8:39:59 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Somehow the name of the pilot flying the glider has to be included so he/she can be charged. How do you do that ?
Dan

Dan,
That is one of my biggest drivers for not using FLARM. The way i envision the process...

1) Rope Runner uses dedicated "club" cell phone and app to enter in pilot info, glider info, and selects which towplane is coming (if more than one)..

2) When the tow comes within bluetooth range, the phone makes the connection to the tow tracker, and the pilots transmits either the data or a unique id for that flight to the tow.

3) The towplane launches, with either an onboard GPS or simple barograph and records the flight. On landing, the device calculates the maximum altitude (or tow time as some clubs use) and assigns that value in a packet with the rest of the flight data.

4) When the towplane comes back into range and the rope runner re-connects, the completed log is downloaded to the handheld device and the next partial log is sent to the tow.

Thus both the device memory and handheld (cellphone) should both have records of the flights, but the app should be able to upload via .csv or other formats quickly at the end of the day (or real time if you really want). I suppose it could be a laptop or any other sort of device that acts as the master/server.

It is quickly becoming apparent that the logging responsibility varies greatly among different clubs!

Respectfully, I believe there are issues that need to be addressed before you spend the effort creating the app...

1) Rope Runner uses dedicated "club" cell phone and app to enter in pilot info, glider info, and selects which towplane is coming (if more than one)..
-cost to club to purchase and maintain cell phone and cell data package
-spare phone when the Rope Runner takes the primary home
-spare battery (or 2) when the phone runs out of power
-ability to correct input errors of Rope Runner (no billing errors)

2) When the tow comes within bluetooth range, the phone makes the connection to the tow tracker, and the pilots transmits either the data or a unique id for that flight to the tow.
-cost and installation of tow tracker (and GPS / barograph system) in each tow plane
-spare tow tracker (plug and play) if primary fails
-requested tow altitude to be voice transmitted to tow pilot by radio prior to launch

3) The towplane launches, with either an onboard GPS or simple barograph and records the flight. On landing, the device calculates the maximum altitude (or tow time as some clubs use) and assigns that value in a packet with the rest of the flight data.
-immediate ability of tow pilot to correct tow altitude and/or time when the glider got off tow and tow pilot missed the glider release

4) When the towplane comes back into range and the rope runner re-connects, the completed log is downloaded to the handheld device and the next partial log is sent to the tow.

Thus both the device memory and handheld (cellphone) should both have records of the flights, but the app should be able to upload via .csv or other formats quickly at the end of the day (or real time if you really want). I suppose it could be a laptop or any other sort of device that acts as the master/server.

It is quickly becoming apparent that the logging responsibility varies greatly among different clubs!

-IMO, the collected data needs to interface directly with the club billing software to issue an appropriate invoice to the glider pilot. Otherwise, the added costs and issues listed above render the App an expensive alternative to pen and tow ticket.
Craig

Kingaroy uses Dittolog,

http://www.dittolog.com

It is an awesome system that does everything, we have had very few issues with it. Probably the hardest bit is getting private owners to register their FLARM in the system so they can be charged, no matter which system you choose this will always be an issue is you have less than enthusiastic pilots. Our way around it was to place a $30.00 fee on top of the tow charge, it's written in our manual very very clearly so there can be no argument.

Originally Posted by Giaco

I have started tinkering around with the idea of developing a Tow-tracking for clubs to use that would not interfere with operations yet still be able to provide an upgrade to having a dedicated logger try and confirm release altitudes.

My current thought is to have a cell phone app that talks to bluetooth sensors mounted in the towplanes. The Wing runner/logger would enter in the pilot/glider info, then transmit the data to the tow. The towplane unit would take that log file and record the tow height (assuming max altitude) and save it to the file, which would then be transmitted back to the logger when the tow lands, and the next pilot log is entered. The logger should be able to upload all the files at the end of the day, with accurate tow heights without asking the tow pilots to record it.

Thoughts? Potential Problems? Interested in helping? The objective of this would that it would be a free app for the community at large with the hardware designs published as well.

I understand there will be the standard cry of "we have always used a pen and paper and it worked just fine," but that isn't the intent of the question being posed..

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 9:57:57 PM UTC-5, Giaco wrote:
I have started tinkering around with the idea of developing a Tow-tracking for clubs to use that would not interfere with operations yet still be able to provide an upgrade to having a dedicated logger try and confirm release altitudes.

My current thought is to have a cell phone app that talks to bluetooth sensors mounted in the towplanes. The Wing runner/logger would enter in the pilot/glider info, then transmit the data to the tow. The towplane unit would take that log file and record the tow height (assuming max altitude) and save it to the file, which would then be transmitted back to the logger when the tow lands, and the next pilot log is entered. The logger should be able to upload all the files at the end of the day, with accurate tow heights without asking the tow pilots to record it.

Thoughts? Potential Problems? Interested in helping? The objective of this would that it would be a free app for the community at large with the hardware designs published as well.

I understand there will be the standard cry of "we have always used a pen and paper and it worked just fine," but that isn't the intent of the question being posed..

In our operation the line crew has the responsibility for safe and efficient launching. Being distracted by a phone function or such would lead, in my view to a potentially much less safe operation. Logging is another function.

On Wednesday, March 9, 2016 at 5:48:42 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 9:57:57 PM UTC-5, Giaco wrote:
I have started tinkering around with the idea of developing a Tow-tracking for clubs to use that would not interfere with operations yet still be able to provide an upgrade to having a dedicated logger try and confirm release altitudes.

My current thought is to have a cell phone app that talks to bluetooth sensors mounted in the towplanes. The Wing runner/logger would enter in the pilot/glider info, then transmit the data to the tow. The towplane unit would take that log file and record the tow height (assuming max altitude) and save it to the file, which would then be transmitted back to the logger when the tow lands, and the next pilot log is entered. The logger should be able to upload all the files at the end of the day, with accurate tow heights without asking the tow pilots to record it.

Thoughts? Potential Problems? Interested in helping? The objective of this would that it would be a free app for the community at large with the hardware designs published as well.

I understand there will be the standard cry of "we have always used a pen and paper and it worked just fine," but that isn't the intent of the question being posed..

In our operation the line crew has the responsibility for safe and efficient launching. Being distracted by a phone function or such would lead, in my view to a potentially much less safe operation. Logging is another function.
During rush hour we are doing between 12 and 14 launches and hour, recovering those tugs, and recovering about 1/2 the gliders. with the line crew handling this there is not time for other stuff.
In our operation it is up to the glider pilot to report tow altitude by radio, or provide to the log keeper after the flight. Failure to provide tow altitude generates a charge for a 5000 foot tow. It rarely happens.
Old school operator
UH

Hank, I'm not sure this would fundamentally challenge how you are operating if you already have a dedicated person logging... this would just make their life easier and cut down on radio chatter, as they could log the pilots as they are preparing for takeoff...unless I'm misunderstanding the responsibilities of your logger.

I think the benefit to this logging is probably greater for larger clubs and those with fast and efficient lines, as opposed to clubs with tow planes that sit on the ground idling for minutes at a time between tows.

It should be an interesting project, i'll report back after seeing if it ends up being a worthwhile endeavor for our club.

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 9:57:57 PM UTC-5, Giaco wrote:
I have started tinkering around with the idea of developing a Tow-tracking for clubs to use that would not interfere with operations yet still be able to provide an upgrade to having a dedicated logger try and confirm release altitudes.

My current thought is to have a cell phone app that talks to bluetooth sensors mounted in the towplanes. The Wing runner/logger would enter in the pilot/glider info, then transmit the data to the tow. The towplane unit would take that log file and record the tow height (assuming max altitude) and save it to the file, which would then be transmitted back to the logger when the tow lands, and the next pilot log is entered. The logger should be able to upload all the files at the end of the day, with accurate tow heights without asking the tow pilots to record it.

Thoughts? Potential Problems? Interested in helping? The objective of this would that it would be a free app for the community at large with the hardware designs published as well.

I understand there will be the standard cry of "we have always used a pen and paper and it worked just fine," but that isn't the intent of the question being posed..

1) Consider the failure mode first. First, what if the bluetooth connections don't work? Second what happens if for some reason the tow simply doesn't record -for example, the system quits working for some reason. How does that get found out and how can it be corrected manually? You don't want the ground crew futzing with the automated logging system while gliders are waiting or engines are running.

2) The whole transmit back and forth process sounds slightly complex and requires sensors. Keep it simple. How about the app can scan a QR code or bar code through the built in camera? A QR code could be affixed to the window of the tow tug and glider but also duplicated on a clipboard on the golf cart for backup. Each pilot can be assigned a QR or bar code like you see on key fobs. Of course, pilots will forget their codes, so also include lookup as a possibility.

3) Record time or height? Line person can enter this manually. For operations that charge by altitude, it should be easy (1k, 2k, 3k checkbox). For time, enter it when the tug lands. Or have some kind of stopwatch function that allows entry of start and end of tow. Or simpler, since tow times are usually known by glider, just allow 4min, 5min, 6min to be entered.

4) If you want to add automation, if the tugs have ADS-B, use a receiver on the ground to get the data from the towplane and automatically enter it.