opinions on a K13

Can't stand someone seeking an opinion other than yours Robert?
Your ego seems rather fragile old boy!!



"Robert Richards" wrote in
message ...
Scott,In future it wuld be nice if you checked stuff out
with the rest of the committee before making statements
in public. I know you are only speaking for yourself,
but you seem to have forgetten that as you are on the
committe of NUGC, what you say can be easily interpreted
as being the position of the committee as a whole.As it is you've caused a
lot of embarrassment and caused
me to acrifice several hours of coursework writing
time to sort out the bloody mess you've made.Perhaps in future you could
make it clear that you
are speaking on behalf of yourself, rather than implying
that you are speaking for all of us?And why on earth you expect anyone on
here tod know anything about getting a grant from our student
union (NOT the university!!) is beyond me.Just to set the record straight,
the coments below
are not the comments of NUGC, just of an individual.RobertPres. NUGCAt
15:54 26 April 2004, Scott MacLeman wrote:I am a member of the council for
my University gliding
club - fairly new compared to most of the people in this forum, but hey
i enjoy it.We currently own a K13 aircraft with a (fairly) serviceable
trailer.we have been offered an Acro with no trailer, and in
order to buy it we will need to sell our K13.I was wondering whether
it would be worth it - because
the deal we have been offered for the acro is not massivly great. and
there are several drawbacks.mainly - asking for a grant from the
university. selling the k13 not having a trailer with it.Just wondering
what some of the more experienced people
think.Thanks,

mrw wrote:
Can't stand someone seeking an opinion other than yours Robert?
Your ego seems rather fragile old boy!!

It may well be fragile, but I suspect that the real problem is something
like this:

Robert and/or his buddies know there are slush funds available from the
Student Union to student clubs who know what hoops to jump through and
have the right contacts. Maintaining a good but geriatric K13 does not
qualify as a proper use for student taxes but assisting the purchase of
a glossy, all-white, curvaceous, T-tailed Acro might well qualify.

In fact Robert had probably carefully written the grant application and
successfully sounded out his mates who were operators on the Union
Council. If the NUGC wanted an Acro, the fix was in.

Keeping news of the proposal from their political opponents on the Union
(who want all of the funds reserved to send THEM on holidays to sunny
places as delegates attending conferences on student poverty and
homelessness, etc) was vital to its success however. Scott has
successfully screwed that aspect thoroughly.

Scott's other mistake was not his responsibility but Robert can't kick
contributors to ras. Scott got the wrong answer. The majority of
respondents correctly told him (and Robert) to stick with the K13 and
stick the Acro somewhere else - especially without a trailer.

Boy is Robert p...ed with Scott!! All that work for nothing. When the
Council debates the GC's application, all the replies from ras will be
quoted by the opposition! And he can't even write it up as an
assignment in Pol Sci 201. Bugger!

Scott: Don't worry unles Robert is chief Duty Pilot (you won't be doing
much flying for a while) or CFI (you'll be on daily checks for years).

Your question was a good one and the answer is - keep the K13.
Best of luck with your next project.

Graeme Cant

"Robert Richards" wrote in
message ...

Scott,In future it wuld be nice if you checked stuff out
with the rest of the committee before making statements
in public. I know you are only speaking for yourself,
but you seem to have forgetten that as you are on the
committe of NUGC, what you say can be easily interpreted
as being the position of the committee as a whole.As it is you've
caused a

lot of embarrassment and caused

me to acrifice several hours of coursework writing
time to sort out the bloody mess you've made.Perhaps in future you could

make it clear that you

are speaking on behalf of yourself, rather than implying
that you are speaking for all of us?And why on earth you expect anyone on

here tod know anything about getting a grant from our student

union (NOT the university!!) is beyond me.Just to set the record
straight,

the coments below

are not the comments of NUGC, just of an individual.RobertPres. NUGCAt

15:54 26 April 2004, Scott MacLeman wrote:I am a member of the
council for
my University gliding

club - fairly new compared to most of the people in this forum, but hey
i enjoy it.We currently own a K13 aircraft with a (fairly) serviceable
trailer.we have been offered an Acro with no trailer, and in
order to buy it we will need to sell our K13.I was wondering whether

it would be worth it - because

the deal we have been offered for the acro is not massivly great. and
there are several drawbacks.mainly - asking for a grant from the

university. selling the k13 not having a trailer with it.Just
wondering
what some of the more experienced people

think.Thanks,

At 23:30 27 April 2004, Vaughn wrote: Well Robert; I don't know about your relative
flying skills or clubmanagement skills, but Scott certainly has the edge
on coherency.My posting got munged for some reason. Not a lot I
can do about that!

At 00:06 28 April 2004, Mrw wrote:Can't stand someone seeking an opinion other than yours
Robert?Your ego seems rather fragile old boy!!Not at all. Of course someone is entitled to ask peoples
opinions. But it isn't helpful when they slag off (albeit
unintentionally) someone who has put in some considerable
effort for us.You can see why that is unhelpful.That's all I have to say on the subject.

"Scott Macleman" wrote in message
...
Just wondering what some of the more experienced people think.

Keep the ASK13.

I am biased as I went solo in one .. Glass ships are going to get you into a lot
more trouble, whereas the K13 will always be a more forgiving platform for
training. Plus you are already ahead in terms of trailer and maintenance of a
familiar piece of equipment versus the servicing of an FRP ship. Insurance costs
will be higher too I'm sure!

Keep the ASK13

HTH

elZee

As an instructor having trained ab initio students in Ka7, Ka13 and Janus,
your remark seems completely unfounded to me. Somebody starting his training
on glass learns the same things in the same laps of time as if he would
start on wood & fabric.
And maintainance on a glass ship is a lot easier than wood & fabric.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"elZee" a écrit dans le message de
...

"Scott Macleman" wrote in message
...
Just wondering what some of the more experienced people think.

Keep the ASK13.

I am biased as I went solo in one .. Glass ships are going to get you into
a lot
more trouble, whereas the K13 will always be a more forgiving platform for
training. Plus you are already ahead in terms of trailer and maintenance
of a
familiar piece of equipment versus the servicing of an FRP ship. Insurance
costs
will be higher too I'm sure!

Keep the ASK13

HTH

elZee

The original post was asking for an opinion on the
relative suitability of a Grob Acro versus a K13 from
someone with experience. I would have thought that
was sensible. Whether it was sensible to seek that
on ras is perhaps open to debate.
To answer the original question, as always it depends.
I have instructed extensively on both with over 2500
launches in a Grob Acro and sending over 100 students
under the age of 21 solo in it. It is probably one
of the best ab initio training gliders I have even
flown. Its main rival, the ASK21 is, like all Scheicher
gliders, better harmonised and probably slightly easier
to teach in, however the Grob is far more robust. (I
have never seen the disappearing nosewheel syndrome
in a Grob)
If you just want to teach people to fly solo and not
go off soaring then either glider will do. If however
you want to teach beyond that the the Grob is the proper
option. If you are teaching people and are expecting
them to go straight into a GRP glider as their first
single seat machine then the Grob is the best option.
If you want to reduce your long term maintenance costs
then the Grob is the best option (You don't have to
recover a Grob every few years, and the gelcoat is
almost bomb proof). If you want to reduce your insurance
bill then the K13 may be the way to go. If you want
a much wider and larger cockpit loading option then
the Grob is the answer.
In my opinion there really is no contest. The K13 was
a fine glider, in it's day, and still is in some ways
but for overall robustness, suitability for training
for GRP flying, and the ability to provide realistic
xcountry training it has had it's day. The Grob is
the best option even if you have to find a trailer
for it.

At 07:42 28 April 2004, Graeme Cant wrote:
mrw wrote:
Can't stand someone seeking an opinion other than
yours Robert?
Your ego seems rather fragile old boy!!

It may well be fragile, but I suspect that the real
problem is something
like this:

Robert and/or his buddies know there are slush funds
available from the
Student Union to student clubs who know what hoops
to jump through and
have the right contacts. Maintaining a good but geriatric
K13 does not
qualify as a proper use for student taxes but assisting
the purchase of
a glossy, all-white, curvaceous, T-tailed Acro might
well qualify.

In fact Robert had probably carefully written the grant
application and
successfully sounded out his mates who were operators
on the Union
Council. If the NUGC wanted an Acro, the fix was in.

Keeping news of the proposal from their political opponents
on the Union
(who want all of the funds reserved to send THEM on
holidays to sunny
places as delegates attending conferences on student
poverty and
homelessness, etc) was vital to its success however.
Scott has
successfully screwed that aspect thoroughly.

Scott's other mistake was not his responsibility but
Robert can't kick
contributors to ras. Scott got the wrong answer.
The majority of
respondents correctly told him (and Robert) to stick
with the K13 and
stick the Acro somewhere else - especially without
a trailer.

Boy is Robert p...ed with Scott!! All that work for
nothing. When the
Council debates the GC's application, all the replies
from ras will be
quoted by the opposition! And he can't even write
it up as an
assignment in Pol Sci 201. Bugger!

Scott: Don't worry unles Robert is chief Duty Pilot
(you won't be doing
much flying for a while) or CFI (you'll be on daily
checks for years).

Your question was a good one and the answer is - keep
the K13.
Best of luck with your next project.

Graeme Cant

'Robert Richards' wrote in
message ...

Scott,In future it wuld be nice if you checked stuff
out
with the rest of the committee before making statements
in public. I know you are only speaking for yourself,
but you seem to have forgetten that as you are on
the
committe of NUGC, what you say can be easily interpreted
as being the position of the committee as a whole.As
it is you've
caused a

lot of embarrassment and caused

me to acrifice several hours of coursework writing
time to sort out the bloody mess you've made.Perhaps
in future you could

make it clear that you

are speaking on behalf of yourself, rather than implying
that you are speaking for all of us?And why on earth
you expect anyone on

here tod know anything about getting a grant from
our student

union (NOT the university!!) is beyond me.Just to
set the record
straight,

the coments below

are not the comments of NUGC, just of an individual.RobertPres.
NUGCAt

15:54 26 April 2004, Scott MacLeman wrote:I am a
member of the
council for
my University gliding

club - fairly new compared to most of the people in
this forum, but hey
i enjoy it.We currently own a K13 aircraft with a (fairly)
serviceable
trailer.we have been offered an Acro with no trailer,
and in
order to buy it we will need to sell our K13.I was wondering whether

it would be worth it - because

the deal we have been offered for the acro is not
massivly great. and
there are several drawbacks.mainly - asking for a grant from the

university. selling the k13 not having a trailer
with it.Just
wondering
what some of the more experienced people

think.Thanks,

It may well be that in the rather specialised world of the Air Training
Corps the Grob Viking does a good job for your pupils aged under 21. Of
the over 100 pupils you solo'd in the Grob, how many went on to get their
Silver 'C'?

However, Lasham has had in their fleet a K21 and a Grob, in fact I think
they have had two successive Grobs. Nevertheless, Lasham still continue to
use the K13 as their main training glider, they have no plans to replace
them and are re-furbishing them. They currently have 1 Duo-Discus, 1
ASK21, 1 Grob Acro and 9 K13s. They have paid a deposit on a DG1000, this
is not to replace a K13, they are thinking of changing the order to a turbo
DG1000. Lasham have operated the K21, the Grob and the K13s quite long
enough to evaluate them as training machines, and from the maintenance point
of view.

Lasham not only sends pupils solo, they also teach them to soar, fly
cross-country and win competitions at world level so they must be doing
something right!

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.


"Don Johnstone" wrote in
message ...

The original post was asking for an opinion on the
relative suitability of a Grob Acro versus a K13 from
someone with experience. I would have thought that
was sensible. Whether it was sensible to seek that
on ras is perhaps open to debate.

To answer the original question, as always it depends.
I have instructed extensively on both with over 2500
launches in a Grob Acro and sending over 100 students
under the age of 21 solo in it. It is probably one
of the best ab initio training gliders I have even
flown. Its main rival, the ASK21 is, like all Scheicher
gliders, better harmonised and probably slightly easier
to teach in, however the Grob is far more robust. (I
have never seen the disappearing nosewheel syndrome
in a Grob).

If you just want to teach people to fly solo and not
go off soaring then either glider will do. If however
you want to teach beyond that the Grob is the proper
option. If you are teaching people and are expecting
them to go straight into a GRP glider as their first
single seat machine then the Grob is the best option.
If you want to reduce your long term maintenance costs
then the Grob is the best option (You don't have to
recover a Grob every few years, and the gelcoat is
almost bomb proof). If you want to reduce your insurance
bill then the K13 may be the way to go. If you want
a much wider and larger cockpit loading option then
the Grob is the answer.

In my opinion there really is no contest. The K13 was
a fine glider, in it's day, and still is in some ways
but for overall robustness, suitability for training
for GRP flying, and the ability to provide realistic
xcountry training it has had it's day. The Grob is
the best option even if you have to find a trailer
for it.

Don Johnstone wrote:
The original post was asking for an opinion on the
relative suitability of a Grob Acro versus a K13 from
someone with experience. I would have thought that
was sensible. Whether it was sensible to seek that
on ras is perhaps open to debate.
To answer the original question, as always it depends.
I have instructed extensively on both with over 2500
launches in a Grob Acro and sending over 100 students
under the age of 21 solo in it. It is probably one
of the best ab initio training gliders I have even
flown. Its main rival, the ASK21 is, like all Scheicher
gliders, better harmonised and probably slightly easier
to teach in, however the Grob is far more robust. (I
have never seen the disappearing nosewheel syndrome
in a Grob)
If you just want to teach people to fly solo and not
go off soaring then either glider will do. If however
you want to teach beyond that the the Grob is the proper
option. If you are teaching people and are expecting
them to go straight into a GRP glider as their first
single seat machine then the Grob is the best option.
If you want to reduce your long term maintenance costs
then the Grob is the best option (You don't have to
recover a Grob every few years, and the gelcoat is
almost bomb proof). If you want to reduce your insurance
bill then the K13 may be the way to go. If you want
a much wider and larger cockpit loading option then
the Grob is the answer.
In my opinion there really is no contest. The K13 was
a fine glider, in it's day, and still is in some ways
but for overall robustness, suitability for training
for GRP flying, and the ability to provide realistic
xcountry training it has had it's day. The Grob is
the best option even if you have to find a trailer
for it.

At 07:42 28 April 2004, Graeme Cant wrote:

mrw wrote:

Can't stand someone seeking an opinion other than
yours Robert?
Your ego seems rather fragile old boy!!

It may well be fragile, but I suspect that the real
problem is something
like this:

Robert and/or his buddies know there are slush funds
available from the
Student Union to student clubs who know what hoops
to jump through and
have the right contacts. Maintaining a good but geriatric
K13 does not
qualify as a proper use for student taxes but assisting
the purchase of
a glossy, all-white, curvaceous, T-tailed Acro might
well qualify.

In fact Robert had probably carefully written the grant
application and
successfully sounded out his mates who were operators
on the Union
Council. If the NUGC wanted an Acro, the fix was in.

Keeping news of the proposal from their political opponents
on the Union
(who want all of the funds reserved to send THEM on
holidays to sunny
places as delegates attending conferences on student
poverty and
homelessness, etc) was vital to its success however.
Scott has
successfully screwed that aspect thoroughly.

Scott's other mistake was not his responsibility but
Robert can't kick
contributors to ras. Scott got the wrong answer.
The majority of
respondents correctly told him (and Robert) to stick
with the K13 and
stick the Acro somewhere else - especially without
a trailer.

Boy is Robert p...ed with Scott!! All that work for
nothing. When the
Council debates the GC's application, all the replies

from ras will be

quoted by the opposition! And he can't even write
it up as an
assignment in Pol Sci 201. Bugger!

Scott: Don't worry unles Robert is chief Duty Pilot
(you won't be doing
much flying for a while) or CFI (you'll be on daily
checks for years).

Your question was a good one and the answer is - keep
the K13.
Best of luck with your next project.

Graeme Cant


'Robert Richards' wrote in
message ...


Scott,In future it wuld be nice if you checked stuff
out
with the rest of the committee before making statements
in public. I know you are only speaking for yourself,
but you seem to have forgetten that as you are on
the
committe of NUGC, what you say can be easily interpreted
as being the position of the committee as a whole.As
it is you've

caused a

lot of embarrassment and caused


me to acrifice several hours of coursework writing
time to sort out the bloody mess you've made.Perhaps
in future you could

make it clear that you


are speaking on behalf of yourself, rather than implying
that you are speaking for all of us?And why on earth
you expect anyone on

here tod know anything about getting a grant from
our student


union (NOT the university!!) is beyond me.Just to
set the record

straight,

the coments below


are not the comments of NUGC, just of an individual.RobertPres.
NUGCAt

15:54 26 April 2004, Scott MacLeman wrote:I am a

member of the

council for

my University gliding


club - fairly new compared to most of the people in

this forum, but hey

i enjoy it.We currently own a K13 aircraft with a (fairly)

serviceable

trailer.we have been offered an Acro with no trailer,

and in

order to buy it we will need to sell our K13.I was wondering whether

it would be worth it - because


the deal we have been offered for the acro is not

massivly great. and

there are several drawbacks.mainly - asking for a grant from the

university. selling the k13 not having a trailer

with it.Just

wondering

what some of the more experienced people


think.Thanks,





I fly at a club that has a fleet of one K13 and one Grob 103 TwinAstir (much
maligned earlier version)

Some comments -
In weak conditions the Grob sits in the hangar, she is just too heavy to man
handle on the airfield bashing circuits for it to be fun. The K13 thermals
better in lighter broken lift so everyone wants to be in the K13 on marginal days.
The level of discomfort in the rear seat is similar in the TwinAstir because of
the strange shape of the back rest. From the front seat I personally prefer the
Grob, because I am a great lump with long legs and the bigger cockpit is more
comfortable.
The K13 requires and gets more maintenance, with recovering and the like, but
after decades of service this is a solid investment for the club. Once you take
the capital costs into consideration, and the fact that some club members
actually want to do the maintenance work (for free, because they enjoy it) the
K13 is actually slightly cheaper to keep than the Grob.
Both of the gliders have trailers, but we would never consider being out of
gliding range of the field with the K13... It might take the whole club to
recover her from a field.
On a strong day when the mountains beacon, there is a queue for the Grob.

For what it is worth the Grob performs similarly to my Standard Cirrus on cross
country. Not bad for a "plastic pig".

If there had to be only one - I suspect it would be the K13, having both is
great. Having a Twin II, so we could still do the aerobatics in the twin would
be best.

I think what many have overlooked is that even today with the K-13 still
increasing in value (no club that I know wants to give one up!) it is still
a great trainer fully capable of taking a student from first flight to early
X/C (no one says you have to see how quick you get it over with!), an
enjoyable Sunday afternoon flyer, and safe.....it's also not yet so
expensive we have to restrict who can fly it or raise the dues or rental
fees to own it....sure a Grob is nice enough and feels more like an old
Buick than a sports car, the K-13 is almost like the family wagon that did
take us all on vacations and still will....the K13 will fly slower and stay
up when the rest of the fleet is on the ground..
Most pilots will eventually own their own single seaters anyway (at least in
the USA) and progress beyond the 2 seat trainer, so if they spend less on
more K13's the logic is they will have better access to club members and
more members....makes sense to me at least....
regardless....go fly!
tim


I fly at a club that has a fleet of one K13 and one Grob 103 TwinAstir
(much
maligned earlier version)

Some comments -
In weak conditions the Grob sits in the hangar, she is just too heavy to
man
handle on the airfield bashing circuits for it to be fun. The K13 thermals
better in lighter broken lift so everyone wants to be in the K13 on
marginal days.
The level of discomfort in the rear seat is similar in the TwinAstir
because of
the strange shape of the back rest. From the front seat I personally
prefer the
Grob, because I am a great lump with long legs and the bigger cockpit is
more
comfortable.
The K13 requires and gets more maintenance, with recovering and the like,
but
after decades of service this is a solid investment for the club. Once you
take
the capital costs into consideration, and the fact that some club members
actually want to do the maintenance work (for free, because they enjoy it)
the
K13 is actually slightly cheaper to keep than the Grob.
Both of the gliders have trailers, but we would never consider being out
of
gliding range of the field with the K13... It might take the whole club to
recover her from a field.
On a strong day when the mountains beacon, there is a queue for the Grob.

For what it is worth the Grob performs similarly to my Standard Cirrus on
cross
country. Not bad for a "plastic pig".

If there had to be only one - I suspect it would be the K13, having both
is
great. Having a Twin II, so we could still do the aerobatics in the twin
would
be best.