Change training aircraft? C172* vs. PA28-*

Actually, if you look at requirements for a student pilot, they must be
signed off for each type of aircraft they will fly solo. Kind of a Type
Rating if you think about it. And while a student, I think a CFI can't
sign you off until you can prove you can do slow flight, stall recovery
and controlled landings in that particular type of plane.

When I first soloed, I did it in a C152. Because we had done training
in the C150 at that point, all I had to do for my instructor was make
two landings w/o him having to say or do anything - he then signed me
off for the C150.

After my PP, I was checked out in a C172 w/in 2 hours total time. All I
had to do was prove that I could land the plane, and do slow flight.
All the insurance company wanted was a CFI to say I could handle the
plane.

Later,
Steve.T
PP ASEL/Instrument

One big advantage of the low wing is being able to see the runway
during the turns in the pattern.

One "Dis" advantage.. is its harder to check final for that guy doing a long
straight in approach, while turning .. the up wing is in the way..

both have pros and cons.. and both have taught many a pilot to fly safely..

BT

Just learn to fly and get your PPL. Fly what's cheap. You can
learn the fancy stuff as you work on your IR.


"Metavalent" wrote in message
.verio.net...
Hi,

I am just finishing solo phase and have a long journey ahead. My training
waypoints are (god willing!) Private, IFR, and perhaps Commercial and even
CFI if I can keep building the skills and financing the habit long enough
to get on the other side of the checkbook.

Bottom line for now is that I am fast realizing the costs of getting
started and I wonder if it might be more efficient to switch from the
C172SP, which I love, but it is a little price; to a PA28-161 or 181. The
wet rates are generally quite a bit lower, at least at my home base, and a
couple of CFI's have mentioned that you can get more bang for your buck in
these airplanes.

For example, I've read:
---
What is your favorite aircraft to instruct in?
Reliable, and forgiving aircraft. Basic trainers a C-152, C172,
PA28-161, PA28-181. Remember the best combination for learning: Newer
aircraft and more experienced instructor. Older aircraft and newer
instructors are both riskier, in general.

What are your aircraft recommendations for a new student?
My own perspective: C-152 -- money saver(if your weigh less than 160lbs);
PA28-161 or 181 -- least hours to get your Private Pilot Certificate;
C-172SP -- pricey, but new and nicely equipped; SR22 --
more expensive, but you get cutting edge technology and performance.
---

I have always had a fascination for low-wing airplanes, but what is the
consensus about a student switching during the post-solo, pre-cross
country stage of training? It is certainly wisest to solo in the plane
that one learns to fly sufficiently well to pass the solo phase checks;
however, I want to maximize the number of hours I am able to fly while
keeping costs reasonable, moving forward. Will I truly get more mileage
for my training dollar by changing now?

It would also be nice to learn the contemporary avionics at the same time,
which is one huge advantage of the 172SP's I have been flying. The
questions are, can these objectives be better (more cost effectively)
achieved in a 161 or 181? What are your thoughts on cross-training or
changing airplanes after solo but prior to that first private certificate?
Of course, if changing now would diminish the development of the most
proficient skills, it would not be worth any cost savings, but I thought I
would ask what others think before moving forward from here.

Thank you in advance for any advice that you might have time to share.

I did 99% of my private training in C172Ns ( with 1 flight in an SP
when all the N models were in the shop ). Even a change between old and
new cessnas had a huge difference on feel. Besides different numbers,
the new 172s feel more slippery and float a bit more, control feels are
lighter and have different systems and definitely new avionics. In my
opinion, you got plenty of other stuff to worry about during private
training than learning a new aircraft. As for avionics, learn to fly
the plane, learning to fiddle with the GPS can be saved for later. For
saving money though, if you're still at that early of a stage, if you
don't mind spending a lesson or 2 just to acustom yourself to a new
plane, it probably will save you dough in the long run.
These days, I fly our club's 78 archer II almost exclusively and I love
it. I got my archer II checkout a few months after I got my private.
Price wise, it's between the old 172s and the new 172s. It's faster
which is a plus for cross countries, in fact you get more dollars to
the mile than an old cessna at my club's rates. After flying low wings,
you'll never wanna fly a high wing again. Also, I much prefer the
mechanical over electric flaps. At my club at least, the pipers are in
way better shape and available more often than the old cessnas because
less student pilots fly them. As for training ( compared to old 172s at
least ), the archer is a tad less forgiving ( but still not hard ). The
flaps are way less dramatic than cessna barn doors. You need to watch
the airspeed a bit more. They float more in the flare. The controls are
a bit lighter. Piper I think calls it a "personal" aircraft not a
trainer. Also, I beat up the 172s pretty bad during training with some
really really bad landings and it took it just fine, I wouldn't be as
confident that a piper would take a student pilot's landing on a bad
day.

My opinion on planes:
old 172s: very forgiving, good for training, reasonably priced
152s: never flown em ( I'm too fat at 200 lbs :-( )
new 172s: spend the extra money (probably less for an old one) flying
an archer instead
old archers: good for cross country but old 172s are preferable for
training

hope ( but not sure :-) ) that helps, good luck
Omri

Metavalent wrote:
Hi,

I am just finishing solo phase and have a long journey ahead. My
training waypoints are (god willing!) Private, IFR, and perhaps
Commercial and even CFI if I can keep building the skills and
financing
the habit long enough to get on the other side of the checkbook.

Bottom line for now is that I am fast realizing the costs of getting
started and I wonder if it might be more efficient to switch from the

C172SP, which I love, but it is a little price; to a PA28-161 or 181.

The wet rates are generally quite a bit lower, at least at my home
base,
and a couple of CFI's have mentioned that you can get more bang for
your
buck in these airplanes.

For example, I've read:
---
What is your favorite aircraft to instruct in?
Reliable, and forgiving aircraft. Basic trainers a C-152, C172,
PA28-161, PA28-181. Remember the best combination for learning: Newer

aircraft and more experienced instructor. Older aircraft and newer
instructors are both riskier, in general.

What are your aircraft recommendations for a new student?
My own perspective: C-152 -- money saver(if your weigh less than
160lbs); PA28-161 or 181 -- least hours to get your Private Pilot
Certificate; C-172SP -- pricey, but new and nicely equipped; SR22 --
more expensive, but you get cutting edge technology and performance.
---

I have always had a fascination for low-wing airplanes, but what is
the
consensus about a student switching during the post-solo, pre-cross
country stage of training? It is certainly wisest to solo in the
plane
that one learns to fly sufficiently well to pass the solo phase
checks;
however, I want to maximize the number of hours I am able to fly
while
keeping costs reasonable, moving forward. Will I truly get more
mileage
for my training dollar by changing now?

It would also be nice to learn the contemporary avionics at the same
time, which is one huge advantage of the 172SP's I have been flying.
The questions are, can these objectives be better (more cost
effectively) achieved in a 161 or 181? What are your thoughts on
cross-training or changing airplanes after solo but prior to that
first
private certificate? Of course, if changing now would diminish the
development of the most proficient skills, it would not be worth any
cost savings, but I thought I would ask what others think before
moving
forward from here.

Thank you in advance for any advice that you might have time to
share.

I did 99% of my private training in C172Ns ( with 1 flight in an SP
when all the N models were in the shop ). Even a change between old and
new cessnas had a huge difference on feel. Besides different numbers,
the new 172s feel more slippery and float a bit more, control feels are
lighter and have different systems and definitely new avionics. In my
opinion, you got plenty of other stuff to worry about during private
training than learning a new aircraft. As for avionics, learn to fly
the plane, learning to fiddle with the GPS can be saved for later. For
saving money though, if you're still at that early of a stage, if you
don't mind spending a lesson or 2 just to acustom yourself to a new
plane, it probably will save you dough in the long run.
These days, I fly our club's 78 archer II almost exclusively and I love
it. I got my archer II checkout a few months after I got my private.
Price wise, it's between the old 172s and the new 172s. It's faster
which is a plus for cross countries, in fact you get more dollars to
the mile than an old cessna at my club's rates. After flying low wings,
you'll never wanna fly a high wing again. Also, I much prefer the
mechanical over electric flaps. At my club at least, the pipers are in
way better shape and available more often than the old cessnas because
less student pilots fly them. As for training ( compared to old 172s at
least ), the archer is a tad less forgiving ( but still not hard ). The
flaps are way less dramatic than cessna barn doors. You need to watch
the airspeed a bit more. They float more in the flare. The controls are
a bit lighter. Piper I think calls it a "personal" aircraft not a
trainer. Also, I beat up the 172s pretty bad during training with some
really really bad landings and it took it just fine, I wouldn't be as
confident that a piper would take a student pilot's landing on a bad
day.

My opinion on planes:
old 172s: very forgiving, good for training, reasonably priced
152s: never flown em ( I'm too fat at 200 lbs :-( )
new 172s: spend the extra money (probably less for an old one) flying
an archer instead
old archers: good for cross country but old 172s are preferable for
training

hope ( but not sure :-) ) that helps, good luck
Omri

Either way (hi or low wing) be sure you get experience with aft CG.
The 172 elevator forces really go down with aft CG. Actually 172s
handle better with rearward CG, and the worst handling is full fuel and
two in front only. I suspect Cherokees would be the same way.

"Metavalent" wrote in message
.verio.net...

What are your aircraft recommendations for a new student?
My own perspective: C-152 -- money saver(if your weigh less than
160lbs); PA28-161 or 181 -- least hours to get your Private Pilot
Certificate; C-172SP -- pricey, but new and nicely equipped; SR22 --
more expensive, but you get cutting edge technology and performance.

I trained in Warriors and switched to a 172N after getting my license. I
found the Warrior easier overall, particularly in crosswinds. The Warrior is
less sensitive in pitch and has less adverse yaw, so it doesn't force you to
learn to use the rudder as much. However, both are fairly tame and the
performance envelope is similar enough that switching wont be too
challenging.

If you switch, you may spend 5 or more hours re-developing your feel for the
plane. Figure that as a cost versus sticking with the 172SP.

Personally, if I ran the world, I would strip every piece of avionics out of
primary trainers except for a transponder and com radio. Airspeed,
altimeter, and tachometer are the only instruments you need to be learning
about at this stage.

-cwk.

well.. at least leave them a wet compass for the cross country work.. LOL
of course they will really learn compass lead/lag problems

(BTW, I think it is one of the required instruments..)

BT

"Colin W Kingsbury" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Metavalent" wrote in message
.verio.net...

What are your aircraft recommendations for a new student?
My own perspective: C-152 -- money saver(if your weigh less than
160lbs); PA28-161 or 181 -- least hours to get your Private Pilot
Certificate; C-172SP -- pricey, but new and nicely equipped; SR22 --
more expensive, but you get cutting edge technology and performance.

I trained in Warriors and switched to a 172N after getting my license. I
found the Warrior easier overall, particularly in crosswinds. The Warrior
is
less sensitive in pitch and has less adverse yaw, so it doesn't force you
to
learn to use the rudder as much. However, both are fairly tame and the
performance envelope is similar enough that switching wont be too
challenging.

If you switch, you may spend 5 or more hours re-developing your feel for
the
plane. Figure that as a cost versus sticking with the 172SP.

Personally, if I ran the world, I would strip every piece of avionics out
of
primary trainers except for a transponder and com radio. Airspeed,
altimeter, and tachometer are the only instruments you need to be learning
about at this stage.

-cwk.

Wow! Awesome responses. Thanks so much. I do have to say that my CFI
has done a great job in making this the case. Even with the fancy
electronics at hand, he smacked me down if I even THOUGHT about going
for the flashy gadgets. He's very much of the school described below
and I'm grateful for it!

well.. at least leave them a wet compass for the cross country work.. LOL
of course they will really learn compass lead/lag problems

(BTW, I think it is one of the required instruments..)

BT

Personally, if I ran the world, I would strip every piece of avionics out
of
primary trainers except for a transponder and com radio. Airspeed,
altimeter, and tachometer are the only instruments you need to be learning
about at this stage.

-cwk.

"Metavalent" wrote

Are you posting in plain text? Check your settings. It is the norm to use
plain text instead of html on the newsgroups.

Thanks
--
Jim in NC