Recommendations for accelerated instrument training NYC area

wrote:

Well, it may be a great experience. And it may be worth the money.

We are not looking for a quick and cheap way to get our instrument
rating. Our goal is to find an effective way to get the rating and the
real experience. I have known few instrument-rated pilots who were
never trained in real IMC.
My husband started his training about a year ago with a local
intructor the slow way - about one lesson a week with breaks in between
due to vacations, weather etc. His progress was very slow, one step
forward then half a step back! We will most likely spend more money on
a cross-country training trip like the DSFI's East Coast trip or
Morey's West Coast trip than with local training. I believe that
either one will prepare us well for our plan of extending our trips
further out West.
Hai Longworth

,

We are not looking for a quick and cheap way to get our instrument
rating.

Which is all well - but the OP did ;-)

Morey's West Coast trip


That, IIRC, DOES end with getting the rating - very much different from
the East Coast thing.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

I wasn't knocking the experience. It looks like it would be a fine
experience for a fledgling instrument pilot, and probably lots of fun.

I was merely pointing out that it appears to be not (a) "intensive",
nor (b) inexpensive, and (c) only seems to provide about 1/3 of the
total hours required for a rating (although it may satisfy the total
dual instruction requirements).

In other words, it seems to be something which augments other forms of
instrument training we have been discussing, rather than replaces it.


On 1 Mar 2005 21:52:06 -0800, "
wrote:


wrote:

Well, it may be a great experience. And it may be worth the money.

We are not looking for a quick and cheap way to get our instrument
rating. Our goal is to find an effective way to get the rating and the
real experience. I have known few instrument-rated pilots who were
never trained in real IMC.
My husband started his training about a year ago with a local
intructor the slow way - about one lesson a week with breaks in between
due to vacations, weather etc. His progress was very slow, one step
forward then half a step back! We will most likely spend more money on
a cross-country training trip like the DSFI's East Coast trip or
Morey's West Coast trip than with local training. I believe that
either one will prepare us well for our plan of extending our trips
further out West.
Hai Longworth

,

You may want to check out the East Coast IFR experience, 6-days of
intensive training for $6000
http://www.dsflight.com/eastcoast-ifr.html
We are both IFR students and are thinking of taking the course soon.


How will that 6000-$/15-hour-experience help him get his IR for 7000 $?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

wrote:
I am a 300+ hour private pilot living and flying in the NYC area
(specifically Caldwell NJ / Teterboro). I am interested in taking
an
accelerated instrument course and have been attracted to the PIC 10
day
course and other similar 10 day courses.

You have already gotten a bunch of advice.

The most useful piece of advice you've gotten is this - quick, cheap,
good - pick two. I will modify that and say that you can pick AT MOST
two - you may get less. You won't get all three.

There is nothing inherently wrong with an accelerated course, except of
course it will not expose you to a wide range of weather. That's not
the end of the world - proper training will allow you to work your way
into flying weather withoug scaring yourself TOO badly - but it's not
optimal either.

Will you get proper training in an accelerated course? You may, but
you will have to pay through the nose for it.

If you want good instrument training, you won't get it from someone who
went through a zero-to-CFI/CFII/MEI course in 300 hours and then got
into the right seat of a trainer, where he has been ever since. There
is a lot to instrument flying that this sort of instructor isn't going
to know. The kind of pilot who WILL know it is someone who has done it
- a long time owner who has used his plane for transportation, a
freight dog, someone like that. Someone with that kind of experience
is not going to drop everything to train you for 10 days unless he is
well paid (think $500+ per day gross, or on salary). He might be
available to you on HIS schedule at the going rate if he's just doing
it part time because he enjoys it.

My understanding is that PIC actually uses experienced instrument
pilots as instructors (but I could be wrong here). I know for a fact
that American Flyers is using timebuilders. I know some of their
instructors and I've flown in IMC with some of their graduates, and I
am NOT impressed and would not recommend the operation.

Of course all this assumes that you're actually going to use the rating
to make IFR flights that can't be made under VFR. If you just plan to
use the rating procedurally or are getting it for professional reasons,
forget everything I've said and find the cheapest, fastest thing you
can.

Michael

On 1 Mar 2005 15:57:33 -0800, "Michael"
wrote:


The most useful piece of advice you've gotten is this - quick, cheap,
good - pick two. I will modify that and say that you can pick AT MOST
two - you may get less. You won't get all three.

Glad someone agreed with me. All 3 are not mutually exclusive, but
you don't usually get something for nothing.

There is nothing inherently wrong with an accelerated course, except of course it will not expose you to a wide range of weather.

I guess that depends on where/when you do it. So far I have 9 hours
of actual....out of ~23 flight hours. We've had 20 degrees F with
icing, snow, wet snow, rain, and a 50 degree foggy day; as well as
clear and partly cloudy days.

My understanding is that PIC actually uses experienced instrument
pilots as instructors (but I could be wrong here). I know for a fact
that American Flyers is using timebuilders. I know some of their
instructors and I've flown in IMC with some of their graduates, and I
am NOT impressed and would not recommend the operation.

In my limited experience, I have found that many CFIs are timebuilders
in one form or other. Some are CFI'ing as an interim 'career' until
the airline job...some are working another job and CFIing to build
time to get an aviation job. I've met a newly minted CFII that seems
to know his stuff...and I've met an experienced CFII that I don't have
full confidence in.

I must admit I did go to American Flyers with some skepticism; that
was dealt with the first day when it was obvious these guys were
serious and knowledgeable. I fully planned to give it a day or two
and quit if it didnt pan out.

--Don

In my limited experience, I have found that many CFIs are
timebuilders
in one form or other. Some are CFI'ing as an interim 'career' until
the airline job...some are working another job and CFIing to build
time to get an aviation job.

And what they have in common is this - they're not experienced enough
to get an airline job. That means they're not experienced enough to
teach instruments either. What you want is the guy who IS experienced
enough to get an airline job. Of course that costs more.

I must admit I did go to American Flyers with some skepticism; that
was dealt with the first day when it was obvious these guys were
serious and knowledgeable.

Unfortunately, you're not going to know if these guys were really
knowledgeable until a couple of years after you get done. That's when
you'll be the guy who launches into the clag solo, in a single or light
twin, and actually goes places - while the rest of the airport wonders
how you can fly in that weather. That's what having good training buys
you.

Of course if you're the one on the ground, and other people are
launching into the clag - well, then you'll know something too.

Michael

Michael wrote:

Unfortunately, you're not going to know if these guys were really
knowledgeable until a couple of years after you get done.Â*Â*That'sÂ*when
you'll be the guy who launches into the clag solo, in a single or light
twin, and actually goes places - while the rest of the airport wonders
how you can fly in that weather.Â*Â*That'sÂ*whatÂ*havingÂ*goodÂ*trainingÂ* buys
you.


As someone else has suggested, a good idea is to ask the people doing as you
describe above. It's imperfect, as there's no guarantee that they *should*
be flying in that grin, but it's if you collect a variety of opinions
that would hopefully cancel out the noise.

- Andrew

Andrew Gideon wrote:
As someone else has suggested, a good idea is to ask the people doing
as you
describe above.

Yes. In my opinion, it's the ONLY really useful advice you can give
someone looking for training. By definition, if you need training, you
can't really evaluate the quality of the training you are getting with
regard to content.

It's imperfect, as there's no guarantee that they *should*
be flying in that grin

That kind of thing tends to be self-correcting. Or used to be. These
days, with modern two-axis autopilots coupled with moving map GPS, the
correction takes longer. But if you can find someone doing these
things, again and again, without all the bells and whistles, you can
pretty much guarantee that he can evaluate the quality of training.

In general, the very best advice you can give someone seeking training
is this - find someone who is making use of the training in the way you
would like to be able to do, and have him choose your instructor.

Michael

wrote:
I am interested in taking an
accelerated instrument course and have been attracted to the PIC 10 day
course and other similar 10 day courses.

Before youspring for one of the expensive package deals, just mosey down to your
local FBO and talk to one of the instructors. Tell them what you're interested
in and ask whether they can put together a syllabus that will do what you want.

You might save a few bucks(?).

You get to meet the instructor beforehand and decide whether you like him or
her, before he arrives in your living room on expense account.

Dave