All Engines-out Landing Due to Fuel Exhaustion - Air Transat, 24 August2001

"harry k" wrote in message
ups.com...

No Spam wrote:
"Roman Svihorik" wrote in message
...
Yes, Dave, I saw it on the National Geographic channel a year or so
ago.
Personally, I felt impressed - I just could not believe such a
plane can
land without engines and total structural damages and passenger
toll...
Roman

Just about ANY airplane can be landed safely without
engines, as long as the elevation and glide ratio allow
a long enough glide to reach (and maneuver to) a runway.

All pilots train to make such "dead stick" landings as
a routine part of training, in any type of airplane.

As attested to by the 'gimli glider'. Hope 'gimli' is correct, it has
been awhile.

Harry K

Rumor has it U 2's have glided "Several Hundred Miles" & made successful
dead stick landings.
Ralph Nesbitt
Professional FD/CFR/ARFF Type
Posting From ADA

"No Spam" wrote in message newsgsZd.4290

All pilots train to make such "dead stick" landings as
a routine part of training, in any type of airplane.


Perhaps now they do. If you read the detailed accounts of the "Gimli Glider"
episode when an Air Canada 767 lost both engines to fuel starvation, the
pilot clearly states that their training did *not* account for the
possibility. Understandably so- MTBF on those engines is in the 100s of
thousands of hours and airline procedures make fuel exhaustion unimaginable.
And unsinkable ships can't hit icebergs either.

I'm beginning to wonder a little about Air Transat. I just read about one of
their A310 rudders snapping off. The plane landed back in Varadero ok. So it
seems their pilots are trained OK but perhaps their maintenance & ops
departments need some work.

-cwk.

"Colin W Kingsbury"
thlink.net:


"No Spam" wrote in message newsgsZd.4290

All pilots train to make such "dead stick" landings as
a routine part of training, in any type of airplane.


Perhaps now they do. If you read the detailed accounts of the "Gimli
Glider" episode when an Air Canada 767 lost both engines to fuel
starvation, the pilot clearly states that their training did *not*
account for the possibility.

Well I had done deadstick landings in the sim looong before that happened.
And that wasn't the first deadstick jet either.



Bertie

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On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 04:08:51 GMT, "Colin W Kingsbury"
wrote:


"No Spam" wrote in message newsgsZd.4290

All pilots train to make such "dead stick" landings as
a routine part of training, in any type of airplane.


Perhaps now they do. If you read the detailed accounts of the "Gimli Glider"
episode when an Air Canada 767 lost both engines to fuel starvation, the
pilot clearly states that their training did *not* account for the
possibility. Understandably so- MTBF on those engines is in the 100s of
thousands of hours and airline procedures make fuel exhaustion unimaginable.
And unsinkable ships can't hit icebergs either.

I'm beginning to wonder a little about Air Transat. I just read about one of
their A310 rudders snapping off. The plane landed back in Varadero ok. So it
seems their pilots are trained OK but perhaps their maintenance & ops
departments need some work.

-cwk.

Isn't it the A310 that also lost a tail and crashed in New York City a
month or 2 after 9/11. IIRC, there is a particular airplane that the
manufacturer says "don't use the rudder too hard" because if you do,
the tail could break off. Imagine if you were test driving a car and
the salesperson said "don't turn too hard or the car will break in
half".

The training might not include the 767, but the Gimli Glider's captain
execute many similiar manouvers with his Cessna (or something like
that), that's why he managed to land the 767 quite safely.

Really, any pilot would like to fly the aircraft without any engine at
all, either for the sake of curiousity or wanting to prepare incase one
did happen.



As for rotary wing aircrafts (helicopters, Osprey, and so on).

Well... They do landing like a gyroplane incase they lost their
engine(s).



As for Air Transat.

Well... What if their maintenance and ops departments did a very good
job?

What else?

Blame the pilots?

Blame the aircraft manufacturers?

What if they already done their jobs quite good and it's their fault?

What if someone clipped the horizontal stabilizer during the flight?
Will the N.T.S.B. said that, or will they blame it on the pilot? Or the
maintenance? Or the aircraft manufacturer?

In most planes your entire let down is done with engines at idle. Some
planes (like the MD-80) automatically increase their idle thrust after
the gear is down (to allow for quicker go arounds). That extra thrust
makes it even more difficult to manage the energy created from the let
down. Slowing down is always the hard part. Gliding shouldn't be.

-Robert

"Robert M. Gary"
groups.com:

In most planes your entire let down is done with engines at idle. Some
planes (like the MD-80) automatically increase their idle thrust after
the gear is down (to allow for quicker go arounds). That extra thrust
makes it even more difficult to manage the energy created from the let
down. Slowing down is always the hard part. Gliding shouldn't be.


Big difference between idle and a windmilling engine, though. And actually,
the incresed idle speed is mainly for the engine's own sake (preventing
flameouts) and on the CF6 it's because the thrust bearings don't like being
pushed !


Bertie

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Roman,

I just could not believe such a plane can
land without engines and total structural damages and passenger toll...


fell for the "dropping out of the sky like a stone" rethoric perpetrated
by the media?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)