No spin training in the US?

snip
Also there is the 'practical' side of how many student pilots would we
lose
after their introduction to spins. Goodness knows, initial exposure to

stalls is already a big issue with fresh students.

Cecil
The apprehension is quite common and normal. The difference is in how a
CFI deals with it and adjusts the training technique to make a student
comfortable with stalls. I feel the same is true with spins.
As a CFI since 1966, and having done literally thousands of spins in a
variety of aircraft, I have long touted the value of good spin
training. My first spin was on my first solo when I was out doing
practice stalls and got sloppy and ended up in a spin. It fascinated me
and I did several more before I went back in to do some T/Go's. when my
CFI asked where I had gone, I told him about the spins, and he simply
said, "OK" and that was that. No big deal. Of course that was in the
late 50's when spins and training in them were a common place thing.
I still maintain the reason for the FAA backing down from spin training
was due to the people making the regs were afraid to do them because of
their own lack of training or proficiency in spins in that transition
time of the 60's/70's.
Most recently I did a short spin session with a student before he went
for his check ride. He told me he was really nervous about it from the
horror stories he had read. I assured him we were not going to do
anything dangerous and he'd be shocked at how relatively mild the whole
thing would be after the fact. Pretty much turned out that way and
calmed his fears that a spin was tatamount to a smoking hole in the
ground.
It almost falls in the same catagory with tailwheel training and
finding someone capable of teaching in them. It has turned into a
mysterious arcane art demanding superior pilot skills, etc, etc, ad
naseum. Such nonsense. Even though spins are required of the CFI
applicant, I often wonder how many of them actually have done them
rather than just get a sign off by a CFI who is afraid to do them and
so the problem propagates itself.
More opportunity for hangar talk.....
Ol Shy & Bashful





-

We have (or when I was flying) had a exercise entering fully developed
stalls where you were in a takeoff configuration. partial power, full
flap and high nose position to maintain altitude.
This execise is sufficient for sport pilots to recognise the onset of a
spin.
But learning to fly DH82's spin training and air restarts were
mandatory :-))

general to the group: in spin training, what seems to have been been
the most popular way to screw up? i understand the drill and i'm having
trouble picturing how to mess up that badly in the typical training
cessana starting at maybe 2500' agl.

now that i've got my tailwheel endorsment, spin training is next
(after i gather a few more aluminum cans from beside the highway for
the fliyin fund!).

dan

houstondan wrote:
general to the group: in spin training, what seems to have been
been
the most popular way to screw up? i understand the drill and i'm
having
trouble picturing how to mess up that badly in the typical training
cessana starting at maybe 2500' agl.

Using Aileron instead of rudder to pick the wing up after the wingdrop
will make the rest of your day quite boring :-)


now that i've got my tailwheel endorsment, spin training is next
(after i gather a few more aluminum cans from beside the highway for
the fliyin fund!).


Why is it that the good things cost the most ?

Hmmmm....

I will wait for this answer as well Dan..

We were taught to start all spins at 5000 ft +...never below..

I spin our 172 regularly just to stay sharp at recovery, and besides
that, it's great fun!

I wonder what I would have to screw up to make the "smoking hole" from
5 K, in such a gentle manouver as a spin....

Oh, and if anybody here has NOT done one..

- you don't get "tossed around" inside the aircraft.
- It is gentle on the aircraft...
- Is a non issue with modern gyros
-The g's on recovery seldom exceed 1.5 G's...
- The attitude is VERY unusual,- the windscreen is totally full of
"ground" , and it's rotating, and it REALLY gets your attention! I
believe it is a good idea to do enough of them to eliminate the
"surprise" factor, and have the "automatic reflexes" of recovery kick
into gear early.

There is about 2 - 3 seconds of "oh ****" in your 1st spin that could
kill you close to the ground....

IMHO one should "train out" those first 2-3 seconds and give your
self and passengers a far better chance of survival..

YMMV!

Dave



On 2 Apr 2005 16:55:54 -0800, "houstondan"
wrote:

general to the group: in spin training, what seems to have been been
the most popular way to screw up? i understand the drill and i'm having
trouble picturing how to mess up that badly in the typical training
cessana starting at maybe 2500' agl.

now that i've got my tailwheel endorsment, spin training is next
(after i gather a few more aluminum cans from beside the highway for
the fliyin fund!).

dan

I spin our 172 regularly just to stay sharp at recovery, and besides
that, it's great fun!

Curious why are you doing spins in a 172? Your own plane?

Besides it not being allowed unless you are in the Utility W&B
envelope, from everything I've read and understand the 172 is not a
great plane for spin training regardless.

The flightschool I'm at won't allow spin training in their 172's
regardless of W&B within utility... 152's are mandatory when that
portion of the curriculum arrives.

- you don't get "tossed around" inside the aircraft.

True, although I wouldn't leave my kneeboard or a pen loose in the
cockpit during spins, regardless.

- It is gentle on the aircraft...

Well, I could debate that one..

- Is a non issue with modern gyros

From everything I've read, true.

-The g's on recovery seldom exceed 1.5 G's...

Again, from student to student that could change.. With a good
recovery and plenty of alt, that sounds about right.. I'd be surprised
if I pulled more then 1.5 on the recovery...however, my CFI has
apparently had some "not so pretty" recoveries that resulted in not so
pretty recoveries, which probably exceeded 1.5g by a sizable margin.

- The attitude is VERY unusual,- the windscreen is totally full of
"ground" , and it's rotating, and it REALLY gets your attention! I
believe it is a good idea to do enough of them to eliminate the
"surprise" factor, and have the "automatic reflexes" of recovery kick
into gear early.

Yep! My exact resoning behind the fact that I feel spin training
should still be mandatory.

There is about 2 - 3 seconds of "oh ****" in your 1st spin that could
kill you close to the ground....

Yep! :-)

"Dave" wrote in message ...
I wonder what I would have to screw up to make the "smoking hole" from
5 K, in such a gentle manouver as a spin....

Switch aircraft and try it in an AA1... That'll get your attention, I
suspect...

On Sat, 02 Apr 2005 21:46:19 -0400, Dave
wrote:

- It is gentle on the aircraft...

Chandler AZ has two Super Cubs. Since I'd never flown at that time, I
asked to do my spin training in a PA-18. They refused because the Cubs
(unlike the Great Lakes trainers they use for aerobatics) have gyro
compasses, and they didn't want to tumble the gyros.

Similarly, Hampton NH prohibits spins in its J-3/L-4 Cubs because of
the age of the aircraft.

So there are two FBOs that don't seem to agree with the gentility of
spins. And I have to say that when I did the spin training in the
Great Lakes, though it was milder than some of the aerobatics I did
later, it was not totally benign. After 90 minutes of it, in the heat,
and driving back to the motel past the stockyard, I sometimes felt
that my own gyros were about to tumble.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net

"Dave" wrote in message
...
- Is a non issue with modern gyros

Humph. Tell my boss that. He won't allow the 172's to be used for spin
training, citing that it greatly shortens the life of the gyros, knocking
them around from stop to stop.

houstondan wrote:
general to the group: in spin training, what seems to have been been
the most popular way to screw up? i understand the drill and i'm having
trouble picturing how to mess up that badly in the typical training
cessana starting at maybe 2500' agl.

now that i've got my tailwheel endorsment, spin training is next
(after i gather a few more aluminum cans from beside the highway for
the fliyin fund!).

dan


One way that was relayed to me by a crusty old instructor is to have the
student freeze at the controls making it hard for the instructor to
recover from the spin.


Matt