Tow Costs

Paul Lynch wrote:

You have to know the details of the operation before you can comment. Our
club, for example, has exceptionally reasonable rates, unfortunately not
a
lot of lift

Club initiation is $200. Monthly dues are $30. 2-33s are $5 per hour,
1-26
is $7 per hour, L-23 and L-33 are $12 an hour. Here is the incredible
part... Tow rates are
1000 ft. - $11.50
1500 ft. - $13.50
2000 ft. - $15.50
2500 ft. - $17.50
3000 ft. - $19.50

We tow with a Citabria and a Pawnee using autogas. Our "rent" is 3 youth
scholarships per year. We have no employees. Instruction is free. The
"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:NM_3e.3177$ZV5.979@fed1read05...
at those tow rates it would be hard to believe that there are any funds
being set aside.

BT

"Stewart Kissel" wrote in
message ...
Out of curiousity...how much is being saved into the
engine rebuild fund? And how many hours are you forecasting
for the engine? A general maintanence fund as well?






monthly dues cover the fixed expenses, the glider and tow fees cover most
everything else including engine reserves and expected maintenance. The
unexpected maintenance is always worrisome. That and the rising price of
gas caused a recent rate increase. The gas situation may cause another
increase in the not too distant future.

Not much point in using a winch, rarely enough lift to climb away. Our
local conditions do make us pretty good "scratchers." You can check us
out
at www.tidewatersoaring.org Note that the tow rates just went up, hence
the difference from the web site published rates.

Weak lift builds character. It's likely somewhat better than you let on.
2-3kts Saturday maybe? Still early in the season. Appears to be some room
off the end of the runway for some extra winch run (with neighbor
cooperation.)

Past couple of seasons, we've bought 100LL cheaper than mogas (2000gal tank.
so we can't claim back the off-road use of the gas tax). Unfortunately,
there's no STC for the Pawnee D airframe for mogas. We pay a hefty tab in
property taxes (though that's solvable with effort, as you have done). We
don't charge an hourly rate for gliders though. That's included in the
dues.

Frank Whiteley
Colorado Soaring Assn.

I think I made a mistake on montly fees. Our web page,
www.ncsoaring.org, shows a monthly fee of $30, not
$35. Or, maybe they are just charging ME $35?? :-)

Discounts for students:
Initiation fee is $150 rather than $200.
If the student is a son or daughter of a 'regular'
member, the student's initiation fee is $100 rather
than $200.

Monthly fees are $15 rather than $30.

No discount on glider fee or towplane fee.

And all members must be SSA members as well.

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA



t 14:30 03 April 2005, Slick wrote:
WHat is your discounts for student?
'Ray Lovinggood' wrote in message
...
1,000': US $13.00
2,000': US $23.00
3,000': US $33.00

Our club has about 40 members. Fees are $200 initiation
and $420/year dues. (Discounts for families and students)
Also, members pay rental on gliders.
L-13: $12/hour
L-33 and G-103: $18/hour
HpH 304C: $40/hour

Towplane is a 180 h.p. Varga Kachina.

Instruction is free.

The tow fees just increased after remaining the same
for about eight years, or longer. Old fees we
1,000': US $13.00
2,000': US $18.00
3,000': US $23.00

We operate on a public use airport where ground launching
would probably not be allowed :-(

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

At 08:00 03 April 2005, Slick wrote:
What is everyone paying for a tow? At our club it's
$17 to 2k and $22 to 3k.
We use a 260hp Pawnee and our club has no rental fees,
only club dues.



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"Slick" wrote in message ...
What is everyone paying for a tow? At our club it's $17 to 2k and $22 to
3k.
We use a 260hp Pawnee and our club has no rental fees, only club dues.


Then I would say your dues may be subsidizing your tows at $2-$3/tow in real
terms, but that depends on your field elevation and business model and
donated work. It's possible you are breaking even or that dues are
structured to do this based on your operating year, size of membership, mix
of private/club gliders, insurance coverage, and any number of other
factors.

The question you need to ask is whether the tow plane is paying its way,
including future repairs and maintenance and replacement, and perhaps
profiting the club. There are different strategies and philosophies for
looking at this. You may arrive a several appropriate answers for 'right'
pricing.

So, the answers may be relatively different, based on the above. FWIW, my
club rate is presently $8US hookup, $0.85US/100ft. That's $16.50US/1000ft,
$25US/2000ft, $33.50US/3000ft. Anything above 9500MSL or aerotow retrieve
is charged by tach hour at $120US/tach hour. On a soarable day locally,
releases are generally 900-1700agl. Winch launches are $8 and usually are
1400-2200agl, depending on winds and length of run used.

Frank

F.L. Whiteley wrote:

"Slick" wrote in message
...
What is everyone paying for a tow? At our club it's $17 to 2k and $22 to
3k.
We use a 260hp Pawnee and our club has no rental fees, only club dues.


Then I would say your dues may be subsidizing your tows at $2-$3/tow in
real terms, but that depends on your field elevation and business model
and
donated work. It's possible you are breaking even or that dues are
structured to do this based on your operating year, size of membership,
mix of private/club gliders, insurance coverage, and any number of other
factors.

The question you need to ask is whether the tow plane is paying its way,
including future repairs and maintenance and replacement, and perhaps
profiting the club. There are different strategies and philosophies for
looking at this. You may arrive a several appropriate answers for 'right'
pricing.

So, the answers may be relatively different, based on the above. FWIW, my
club rate is presently $8US hookup, $0.85US/100ft. That's
$16.50US/1000ft,
$25US/2000ft, $33.50US/3000ft. Anything above 9500MSL or aerotow retrieve
is charged by tach hour at $120US/tach hour. On a soarable day locally,
releases are generally 900-1700agl. Winch launches are $8 and usually are
1400-2200agl, depending on winds and length of run used.

Frank
I might add were are at 5500MSL, so tach hour rates from 4000AGL.

These rates were based on Pawnee 235 D. Our 250 conversion will be flying
Monday. Though fuel consumption is expected to rise about 1GPH, I expect
we might also see an additional tow per hour also. Rates will shake out
from there and fuel costs.

Frank

LVVSA Club operation, not commercial
Pattern tow 1000ft AGL or rope break, $12 ($10 for tow $2 for glider)
Std 2K Tow, $25, plus $5 / 1000ft above 2K

Club glider rates, SGS 2-33, 1-26 $12/hr, Grob 103 $36/hr (20% discount for
10hr pre paid block), LS-4, $30/hr (10% discount for 10hr pre paid block)
(glider charge above for rope breaks or pattern training)

Rates increased last year with fuel cost increase. Fuel was about $2/Gal US,
now approaching $3/gal

BT

"Slick" wrote in message ...
What is everyone paying for a tow? At our club it's $17 to 2k and $22 to
3k.
We use a 260hp Pawnee and our club has no rental fees, only club dues.



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I guess I should have added in our initiation is $500 and our quarterly dues
are $112.50
"Slick" wrote in message ...
What is everyone paying for a tow? At our club it's $17 to 2k and $22 to
3k.
We use a 260hp Pawnee and our club has no rental fees, only club dues.



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$500 at the door.. and $450/yr to stay with no rental fees.
So you're paying $450 to fly whether you fly or not.. the low time flyers
are subsidizing the high time flyers.. I'd not complain about those tow
rates..

BT

"Slick" wrote in message ...
I guess I should have added in our initiation is $500 and our quarterly
dues
are $112.50
"Slick" wrote in message
...
What is everyone paying for a tow? At our club it's $17 to 2k and $22 to
3k.
We use a 260hp Pawnee and our club has no rental fees, only club dues.



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BTIZ wrote:

$500 at the door.. and $450/yr to stay with no rental fees.
So you're paying $450 to fly whether you fly or not.. the low time flyers
are subsidizing the high time flyers..

The eternal discussion. The opposite point of view ist that a glider's
value doesn't depend on flight time, it looses value each year whether
it is flown or not. So, with hourly rates, the high timers subsidy the
low timers. In many groups, this problem is permanently discussed.

Back to the topic: We pay about $4.40 per tow minute on a 180 hp Husky
(airborne time of the tow plane counts). With this rate, after deducting
all costs, we make a little profit for the club.

Stefan

The eternal discussion.

Agreed

Back to the topic: We pay about $4.40 per tow minute on a 180 hp Husky
(airborne time of the tow plane counts). With this rate, after deducting
all costs, we make a little profit for the club.
Stefan

4.40 per minute = $264 per hour
on an average of 4-5 tows per hour on a busy day,
that's 264/5 = 52 per average tow...

no wonder you're making money.

On the other hand, most of OUR tows are about 500fpm, so a 2K tow would take
4 minutes or about $17.60.. of course that does not count for time spent in
sink or rotor on a strong day.. with zero rate of climb on tow (tow pilot
turning back to the thermal or ridge lift). And then the airplane has to
return, we can get our tow on the ground from a 2K tow in 1:30 to 2 min,
providing now one else is in the traffic pattern.

Your 180HP Husky burns just a tad less fuel than a 235HP IO540.

So we are about the same..

BT

BTIZ wrote:

4.40 per minute = $264 per hour

Face it, that's what it costs to operate an airplane in Europe. We
charter the same plane for 180 an hour, and brake more or less even with
that. (I think we calculate our costs at 150 an hour, but I'm not sure.
Of course, we're calculating the full cost of operation.)

on an average of 4-5 tows per hour on a busy day,
that's 264/5 = 52 per average tow...

Wrong calculation. An average tow lasts about 5 to 7 minutes on our
field with average weather. When we have to tow further away, it gets
expensive.

no wonder you're making money.

Well, we're making money in our own pockets. Same discussion as above:
Somehow we must pay for our modern fleet. (Two LS8s, two LS7s, three
LS4s, two double seaters... with no hourly fees.)

Your 180HP Husky burns just a tad less fuel than a 235HP IO540.

But at approximately four times the price.

Stefan