Alarming news stories on instructor and student down at HPN

What is bad? Below IFR mins? Primary students SHOULD get some actual
cloud time.

-Robert, CFI

In article .com,
Robert M. Gary wrote:

What is bad? Below IFR mins? Primary students SHOULD get some actual
cloud time.

-Robert, CFI


VV 200', Indefinate ceiling, very low visibility, temp/dewpoint spread
0 degrees, gusty winds and heavy rain on and off throughout the day.
I'd say it was pretty bad.

Would you really take a primary student out on a day like that? I
didn't fly that day, wouldn't have if you asked me to. They had no
business being there. I do not disagree with you that taking a primary
student on an IFR flight in actual can be a good thing. In fact I took
such a flight during my primary training as it was a wonderful learning
experience. There are good times to do it and bad times to do it. I do
not think it's necessary to take a primary student down to minimums in
order to give him or her the experience of being in IMC. Saturday was
a very bad day to be doing this. That's my opinion.

If I seem particularly ****ed about this it is because this is the type
of thing that gives GA a black eye and could lead to the closing of an
airport. Believe me, HPN has had enough pressure on it before this.
This will only make it worse.

I'll lay off now. Thanks for listening.

Amen


"Tom Fleischman" k wrote in
message
news:260420052122024335%bodhijunkoneeightyeightjun ...
In article .com,
Robert M. Gary wrote:

What is bad? Below IFR mins? Primary students SHOULD get some actual
cloud time.

-Robert, CFI


VV 200', Indefinate ceiling, very low visibility, temp/dewpoint spread
0 degrees, gusty winds and heavy rain on and off throughout the day.
I'd say it was pretty bad.

Would you really take a primary student out on a day like that? I
didn't fly that day, wouldn't have if you asked me to. They had no
business being there. I do not disagree with you that taking a primary
student on an IFR flight in actual can be a good thing. In fact I took
such a flight during my primary training as it was a wonderful learning
experience. There are good times to do it and bad times to do it. I do
not think it's necessary to take a primary student down to minimums in
order to give him or her the experience of being in IMC. Saturday was
a very bad day to be doing this. That's my opinion.

If I seem particularly ****ed about this it is because this is the type
of thing that gives GA a black eye and could lead to the closing of an
airport. Believe me, HPN has had enough pressure on it before this.
This will only make it worse.

I'll lay off now. Thanks for listening.

"Robert M. Gary" wrote:

What is bad? Below IFR mins? Primary students SHOULD get some actual
cloud time.

According to the METARs that corresponded to the accident time, the weather
was low IFR to below minimums.

In another thread someone posted a link that showed the METAR history from
that day.

--
Peter













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("Tom Fleischman" wrote)
http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/p...0050426/NEWS02
/504260335/1018&template=printart

http://tinyurl.com/cadmn
(same link as above)


http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/p...0050426/NEWS02
/504260334/1018&template=printart

http://tinyurl.com/b8p8s
(same link as above)


Montblack

"Tom Fleischman" k wrote in
message
news:260420051651377491%bodhijunkoneeightyeightjun ...
Here a couple of alarming stories about the pilots who went down at HPN
last weekend:

First:

http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/p...0050426/NEWS02
/504260335/1018&template=printart

Pertinent quote:

Paramedic had set sights on sky

By BILL HUGHES AND CANDICE FERRETTE

THE JOURNAL NEWS

YONKERS Paramedic Lev Naoumov briefly considered going to medical
school after graduating from college with a biology degree before the
urge to become a professional pilot took hold of him a few months ago.

Yesterday, his family and friends were still reeling from the outcome
of that career decision, which led to the well-liked 23-year-old man's
death, along with his instructor, in a plane crash Saturday
snip
Gary Reben, 27, another fellow paramedic, said that he had been out
shooting pool with Naoumov on Friday night, and his friend had said he
would not be flying the next day because of bad weather in the
forecast.

And...

http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/p...0050426/NEWS02
/504260334/1018&template=printart

Pertinent quote:

By RICHARD LIEBSON
THE JOURNAL NEWS
(Original Publication: April 26, 2005)

PORT CHESTER A flight instructor who was killed in a plane crash
Saturday afternoon near Westchester County Airport did not like flying
in bad weather but was working overtime to save money so he could visit
his ailing father in a Puerto Rican hospital, his brother said
yesterday.


So here we have an instructor who is looking to work overtime to make
enough money to go to Puerto Rico to visit his sick father and a
student pilot who was out late the night before drinking in a bar
because he didn't expect to be flying the next day.

This does NOT look good.

Everybody knows my feelings about these things, so don't take this
personally. I feel this way generally, and my criticizm is general in nature
and not meant to flame you. I hope you take it that way.

All depends on your perspective. It might not look good to you or to someone
else, but to me, it looks like a whole lot of assumption from reading
something in a news article at a WAY too early point in an accident
investigation.

You know what this ACTUALLY reminds me of...I'll tell you.

It reminds me of something we demonstration pilots would talk about from
time to time in some back room at some airport or airbase flight ops after a
show when we got together with each other and got rid of the "outsiders".
We would laugh over a coke or two and discuss our business.

We all seemed to agree on one thing when the subject came up. That when
doing a low altitude demonstration, if our bird suddenly suffered a
catastrophic failure inside it somewhere and caused one of us to dig a VERY
big hole in the middle of the field as our last act on earth, we could
always count on at least one guy watching from the crowd to run out to the
crash; stand there and shout to the world what HE thought we had done wrong
to cause the crash.
In other words, you can speculate like this if it's your thing. For all I
know you're a really nice fellow with perfectly innocent intentions. You
might not be that guy in the crowd for all I know. :-)))))
Like I said, no personal flame intended, but
just be aware that there are a WHOLE lot of professionals out here who don't
say things like this after a crash and don't care for it much at all.
In our circle you can find yourself drinking very much alone at the bar
thinking like this. I'm not you, but FWIW, I'd wait for some substantial
results before commenting like this on any crash and leave the early
speculation to the grade school set.

Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot; CFI; Retired
dhenriquestrashatearthlinktrashdotnet
(take out the trash :-)

Tom Fleischman wrote:
Here a couple of alarming stories about the pilots who went down at HPN
last weekend:

Aside from being a reader's digest tearjerker, was there any point whatever
to this ? A bunch of non-pilots saying "I knew flying was dangerous" ?

I have people in my own family who predicted I would kill myself flying,
who are unimpressed by me passing 500 hours without the slightest
incident.

The public does not *get* flying. If they did, they would do it. People
ride motorcycles, which are far more likely to get you killed, and
think nothing of it.

Scott Moore wrote:
The public does not *get* flying. If they did, they would do it. People
ride motorcycles, which are far more likely to get you killed, and
think nothing of it.

Now you sound like the reporter! Most people that have been riding
(motorcycles) for any length of time don't "think nothing of it" ...
most are well aware of the danger and risk involved.

wrote in message
...
Scott Moore wrote:
The public does not *get* flying. If they did, they would do it. People
ride motorcycles, which are far more likely to get you killed, and
think nothing of it.

Now you sound like the reporter! Most people that have been riding
(motorcycles) for any length of time don't "think nothing of it" ...
most are well aware of the danger and risk involved.

Furthermore, as has been amply documented in other threads here, the risk of
GA flying is about comparable to the risk of motorcycle riding; motorcycles
are not "far more likely" to get you killed.

--Gary

"Scott Moore" wrote in message
...
People
ride motorcycles, which are far more likely to get you killed, and
think nothing of it.


Actually the accident fatality rate is about the same for motorcycles and
GA. Since I do both .. I guess it doubles my chance of biting the big one.