A&P Revocations!

On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 12:35:58 -0400, "W P Dixon"
wrote:

try to remember their are absolute idiots out there with A&P's just like
there are idots without them. A piece of paper does not a mech make!

That is totally true and to avoid getting into a long drawn out
argument, I do not think that I am somehow better because I have gone
to school than somebody who got theirs based on experience. I think
that I am a better mechanic than *I* would have otherwise been without
the school and that if you want to be exposed to as many different
aspects of aviation mechanics as possible in a short time that a good
school is the best way to accomplish that. I have nothing but the
utmost respect for anybody who got their A&P through experience.
Either way that you go, you still have to put in your time. I chose
school because it was the fastest way in my particular case and we
happen to have a good program in my area.

But I don't buy the fact that it was just luck of the draw that people
chose this guy for their testing and happened to get nailed by the
evil FAA (as accurate as that adjective may be). As you said, the
deal seemed fishy and people sought him out because he was the
cheapest (not that he didn't have every right to set whatever prices
he wanted) and had a reputation for being easy on the test. My
problem (and lack of sympathy for those guys) is based on the belief
that the bar should be set the same regardless of how you got your
experience and that those people who sought out a guy known for lower
test standards ended up getting exactly what they paid for.

This is no different than an aircraft owner who seeks out an IA known
for "paperwork" annual inspections. When they are both busted by the
FAA it is hard to feel sorry for either of them. The real victims are
the guy's passengers who think they are flying on an aircraft that has
been properly inspected.

================================================== ==
Del Rawlins--
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/
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"W P Dixon" wrote in message ...
Alot of those guys and girls had been working on planes for 15 or 20 years
and took their A&P at the Sanford location because he was cheaper than
anyone else. If you think you know more than a mech that has worked on the
line for 15 or 20 years who doesn't yet have his A&P just because you went
to school....you have alot to learn.
At one time I even thought about trying to make it to that guys place
and taking it...because it was cheap. I have 20 plus years experience on
numerous types of aircraft ( fixed and rotor) and I have never needed an A&P
license to work. But always having a family to support it is difficult to
take off for a week of work and spend 1000 bucks doing it as well. So money
is a key factor to most people in the real world.

I'm in kind of the situation described. I've been at this off and on
for 20 or so years but always earned my living doing something else.
Time has now come where I think I need the piece of paper that says I
am an A+P so I don't have to keep getting friendly I/A's to sign off
my work. I'll be getting a couple of weeks off this winter and had
planned to go to one of these quick A+P schools. Now this pops up so
my question:

Can/would anyone make a few suggestions about which one of the "one
week wonder schools" actually does a proper job of testing? Any
places like the one described to avoid?

If I'm not up to the task I need to know that, so I don't want a
rubber stamp operation, and I also don't want to have to go through
the whole thing again a few years down the line. After all finding
the time is the hard part to begin with.......
===========================
Leon McAtee
Checking all the web sites from TAP for A+P testing

On 10 Oct 2004 07:38:26 -0700, (sidk) wrote:

(Del Rawlins) wrote in message ...

...sniped

As one who recently went through 2 years of school full time and a
good deal of personal expense to obtain my A&P certificate, please
excuse me if I fail to feel any sympathy for those mechanics. They
tried to skirt the system and get by on the cheap, and ended up
getting exactly what they paid for.

Well, maybe...but...
I think it would be unfair and a mistake to assume all 3000 were
trying to "...skirt the system and get by on the cheap.." Many could
have been just as competant and prepared as you say you were but
simply got that particular DE by luck-of-the-draw.

You are probably right there. There may have been guys who didn't
know and who were genuinely surprised at the test they were given.
For all I know that may be how the guy got busted. Either way though,
I think it is safe to say that most people sought him out specifically
because word had gotten around that he was the guy to go to for a
quick and easy examination. I may be totally off base (it has
happened before) but I feel that in any business that you will attract
the sort of clientele that you cater to, and that as a customer you
generally get what you pay for.

================================================== ==
Del Rawlins--
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/
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(Del Rawlins) wrote in message ...
On 10 Oct 2004 07:38:26 -0700, (sidk) wrote:

(Del Rawlins) wrote in message ...

...sniped


You are probably right there. There may have been guys who didn't
know and who were genuinely surprised at the test they were given.
For all I know that may be how the guy got busted. Either way though,
I think it is safe to say that most people sought him out specifically
because word had gotten around that he was the guy to go to for a
quick and easy examination. I may be totally off base (it has
happened before) but I feel that in any business that you will attract
the sort of clientele that you cater to, and that as a customer you
generally get what you pay for.

================================================== ==
Del Rawlins--
Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
http://www.rawlinsbrothers.org/bhfaq/
Remove _kills_spammers_ to reply


Del,

I lived in Florida during the time this guy was operating. It wasn't
just a matter of poor record keeping that caused his problem. It was
that he was a fraud, and it was well known. I had wondered why the
feds hadn't nailed him earlier. I know several from Miami that went to
Stanford for their test and every one passed.This included some that
worked for me at a Commuter. He wasn't cheap he charged $1000 for the
test and guarenteed you would pass. He had the computer set-up for
the written test you would go in and take the test and not lock it in
as normal when you finished. Tony would then have you leave the room
and he would adjust your answers so that you passed. I was told this
by two persons that took the test. After the written phase he would
take you around the hangar and for your oral and practical asking you
such questions as whats that? Pointing to a component on a plane like
an aileron or a elevator. In a matter of minutes you would be on your
way with a new A&P in your pocket.
One time a whole class from Broward Comunity College went there for
their test. A DME is only allowed to give two test a day. All passed
that one day but their licenses were dated to reflect that only two
were issued each day. OK you first two yours are today the next two
yours are tomorrow and so on.
I spent about 4 hours going over oral questions one evening with two
persons whos names I will not publish here. In the four hours I spent
asking questions right out of the A&P oral guide. They totaled maybe
three correct and that was giving them the benefit of doubt. I told
them that they needed to sharpen up before the test and they told me
not to worry. Two days later they came to work with their new A&Ps
from Stanford. Their job status didn't change they stayed as mechanics
helpers. They finally figured that I wouldn't promote them they got
P.O.'d and left.
More than likely a good portion of these folks could have passed
their test from anyone and got caught up in this mess. For them I feel
sorta sorry because they are out a grand in money and really didn't
get anything for it other than some grief.
Like any endeavor you get out of it what you put into it,an A&P
school is no different. The protectors are supposed to be the DMEs,
they are the line of defense that weeds out the ones that don't have
the basic skills.This particular one was in it for the money and he
got what he deserved a big fine. I think it was like $275,000 and many
years in a federal pen.

Frank M.Hitlaw

as a customer you
generally get what you pay for.

Del Rawlins--
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Not with the odds that exist in my world, Del. g

CAVEAT EMPTOR is more than just a couple
of trite words strung together for ****s and grins.

May I be so bold as to postulate that...
you GENERALLY get LESS than what you pay for
unless you get lucky, OR... are informed and
know what the hell you're doing in this profit driven
capitalistic society.


Barnyard Bob - living a life of gen-u-wine bargains

"Del Rawlins" wrote in message There may have been guys who didn't
know and who were genuinely surprised at the test they were given.
For all I know that may be how the guy got busted. Either way though,
I think it is safe to say that most people sought him out specifically
because word had gotten around that he was the guy to go to for a
quick and easy examination.

That is how the investigation started, but consider this- Everyone who has
received a letter for re-testing has had their certificate for a minimum of
6 years and many have had it for 9 full years. They may have gone there for
the quick or for the easy, but if they truly did not know the trade, the
industry would have weeded them out. The ones who weren't weeded out can
likely pass the re-test, but why should they have to? Could you retake your
college finals and pass tomorrow? What if the re-test is to recover a
control surface? I haven't done that since high school (and still have the
brain damage from inhaling the fumes). As someone else pointed out, most of
these mechanics work full time. The re-test must be administered by the FAA,
not a DE (sec.44709). Most of the time, a re-test can be scheduled at the
FSDO of choice and at a time which is convenient to all. In this case, if
one doesn't go when and were the letter states, one's certificate is
revoked. The FAA is doing the bidding of the Inspector General (who isn't
FAA). It's pure politicking and it sucks.

D.

"Capt.Doug" wrote in message ...
"Del Rawlins" wrote in message There may have been guys who didn't
know and who were genuinely surprised at the test they were given.
For all I know that may be how the guy got busted. Either way though,
I think it is safe to say that most people sought him out specifically
because word had gotten around that he was the guy to go to for a
quick and easy examination.

That is how the investigation started, but consider this- Everyone who has
received a letter for re-testing has had their certificate for a minimum of
6 years and many have had it for 9 full years. They may have gone there for
the quick or for the easy, but if they truly did not know the trade, the
industry would have weeded them out. The ones who weren't weeded out can
likely pass the re-test, but why should they have to? Could you retake your
college finals and pass tomorrow? What if the re-test is to recover a
control surface? I haven't done that since high school (and still have the
brain damage from inhaling the fumes). As someone else pointed out, most of
these mechanics work full time. The re-test must be administered by the FAA,
not a DE (sec.44709). Most of the time, a re-test can be scheduled at the
FSDO of choice and at a time which is convenient to all. In this case, if
one doesn't go when and were the letter states, one's certificate is
revoked. The FAA is doing the bidding of the Inspector General (who isn't
FAA). It's pure politicking and it sucks.

D.

It was pretty well documented when this thing first broke several
years ago that everyone that had tested with this guy would have to
retest. If I had been in this group I would have made some
preparations to cover myself. I think going on the offense immediately
would have been the best course of action. But, anyone who only thinks
of skating by would probably wait for a situation like this to happen.
In terms of the industry weeding the dead wood out I don't see
that happening. They just make the rounds from one place to another.
In Miami there are literally hundreds that should be wearing a paper
hat and asking if you want frys with your happy meal.

Frank Hitlaw