MOA??

"John Doe" wrote in message
ink.net...

MILITARY OPERATIONS AREA (MOA): Airspace established outside the Positive
Control Area (PCA) to separate/segregate certain military activities from
IFR traffic and to identify for VFR traffic where these activities are
conducted. Whenever a MOA is active, nonparticipating IFR traffic may be
cleared through the area provided ATC can ensure IFR separation;
otherwise, ATC will reroute or restrict nonparticipating IFR traffic.

Military does not get exclusive use of a MOA, just because it's identified
as a MOA.


Nobody said otherwise.



A MOA is just a chunk of VFR airspace that's been identified by ATC as an
area used by military traffic.


It's a bit more than that. You're essentially describing an Alert Area.
But the FAR restrictions on speed and aerobatics apply in Alert Areas, not
so in MOAs.



Yea, actually they do. I have over 2000 hours flying military jets in
MOAs and every single time I have been in contact with ATC. They normally
have a UHF working freq assigned to the MOA that military aircraft will
monitor. While not actively receiving any services from ATC while in the
MOA, ATC always has a freq to contact them on if needed, Guard being the
last resort. I have recieved countless changes to my clearance while in a
MOA, effecting my block altitudes, traffic advisories, etc from ATC while
working in MOAs.


I have over twenty years experience as an air traffic controller. I've
worked airspace that contained or was adjacent to MOAs, ATCAAs, Restricted
Areas, MTRs, and aerial refueling tracks. That includes the Falls 1 MOA,
which is the one under discussion here. Your limited experience with a few
MOAs does not apply to all of them, what you wrote about the Falls 1 MOA is
incorrect.



Already commented on this. Yes they are, just not the one you're
listening to. They are not on same VHF freq as civilian traffic. ATC is
talking to them on a seperate UHF freq, specific to that MOA.


Again, you're assuming all MOAs are consistent with your experience. They
are not. I've worked many military aircraft into MOAs and out of them. It
was common for them to file flight plans to a point just inside the MOA and
cancel IFR and leave the frequency just before entering the airspace.
They'd also file a return flight plan from the same point, the only time
they were on ATC frequency while within the active MOA was to pick up their
return clearance.

Fair enough. Not all MOAs are the same. And you're right, I have not flown
in all of them.

Airport is KBCK, Falls 1 MOA. Central Wisconsin, Green Bay sectional.

Actually, the advice I previously received here (from a couple of controllers
IIRC) was correct: If the MOA is hot, ATC will not let you in IFR. If you
can't cancel and go in VFR, you are SOL. In the KBCK case, I would consider
going in VFR because it is very close to the edge of the MOA at one point.

To double check, I called Center on the phone. The admin phone for both Chicago
and Minneapolis centers is the same, so I ended up talking to a controller at
Chicago. He said the same thing as above.

Re the rest of your thoughts, that is all new to me. I have flown near a few
hot MOAs while on an IFR clearance and have never heard Center talking to the
military guys. I have also never read any idea that ATC would be working with
the military guys. Is this just your theory?

I have read a couple of articles on MOAs from the military viewpoint and the
gist was that they are really scared of civilian traffic because they are moving
so fast relative to us. In fact, I think in some cases we are such slow movers
that their targeting radar suppresses our returns.

On 7/5/2005 7:36 PM, John Doe wrote the following:
"Mitty" wrote in message
...

I have to try to KBCK next week for a funeral. It is inside a MOA.

Filing IFR seems safer than going in VFR, but if I file and the MOA is
hot, what is ATC going to do?


ATC owns the MOA. If need be, they can block the military aircraft in the
MOA to altitude deconflict from you under you're through. File IFR and
follow their instructions. If that doesn't work for you, file VFR and go
anyway. Military pilots are well trained that MOA are not exclusive use
airspace and civilian traffic may transit the airspace at any time. ATC
will likely give them point outs of your location and they will avoid you
even if you're VFR (as long as you're transponder is working).

Which MOA is it?

"Mitty" wrote in message
...
Airport is KBCK, Falls 1 MOA. Central Wisconsin, Green Bay sectional.

Actually, the advice I previously received here (from a couple of
controllers IIRC) was correct: If the MOA is hot, ATC will not let you in
IFR. If you can't cancel and go in VFR, you are SOL. In the KBCK case, I
would consider going in VFR because it is very close to the edge of the
MOA at one point.


I would agree with that to a point. If it's IFR conditions and you're
trying to get in to land, you might have to hold as ATC tries to work you
into the approach. As you hold, ATC will be contacting the military
aircraft in the MOA to try and deconflict to get you IFR seperation. You
will hold outside the MOA until ATC can work that.

To double check, I called Center on the phone. The admin phone for both
Chicago and Minneapolis centers is the same, so I ended up talking to a
controller at Chicago. He said the same thing as above.

Re the rest of your thoughts, that is all new to me. I have flown near a
few hot MOAs while on an IFR clearance and have never heard Center talking
to the military guys. I have also never read any idea that ATC would be
working with the military guys. Is this just your theory?


I am not an ATC controller, but most military talks on UHF on their primary
radio and VHF by exception. Some jets don't even have VHF. The controller
might not be simulcasting his transmissions to the military pilots on VHF,
that's probably why you're not hearing them. But I can promise you, ATC is
working with them.

I have read a couple of articles on MOAs from the military viewpoint and
the gist was that they are really scared of civilian traffic because they
are moving so fast relative to us. In fact, I think in some cases we are
such slow movers that their targeting radar suppresses our returns.


For the most part this is true. Most GA traffic are like very large birds
to military jets. Imagine passing cars on the freeway that are only going
20mph when you're trying to do 70mph. While the military radars are tuned
to detect fast movers at long ranges, they are capable of detecting civilian
traffic, just at much shorter ranges. With that being said, a Cessna flying
at 90kts on a perpendicular flight path might not show until very late on
radar.

"John Doe" wrote in message
link.net...

I would agree with that to a point. If it's IFR conditions and you're
trying to get in to land, you might have to hold as ATC tries to work you
into the approach. As you hold, ATC will be contacting the military
aircraft in the MOA to try and deconflict to get you IFR seperation. You
will hold outside the MOA until ATC can work that.


What do you base that on?



I am not an ATC controller, but most military talks on UHF on their
primary radio and VHF by exception. Some jets don't even have VHF. The
controller might not be simulcasting his transmissions to the military
pilots on VHF, that's probably why you're not hearing them. But I can
promise you, ATC is working with them.


What puts you in a position to make that promise?