Eclipse 500

On Mon, 04 Jul 2005 10:37:16 -0700, Richard Riley
wrote:

On Mon, 4 Jul 2005 13:07:54 -0400, "Kyle Boatright"
wrote:

Eclipse is going up against a player - Cessna - that dominates that
segment of the market. They're going in with 2 things - a much lower
price point, and a small technical advantage. Meanwhile Cessna has a
well established name, product line, production facilities, dealers,
repair facilities, diversified product line and deep pocket corporate
parents.

Does Eclipse have the money to stay alive in a price war with Cessna?

Bill Gates is the 2nd major investor in Eclipse... One can guess who
the #1 investor is...

http://www.eclipseaviation.com/inthe...content_id=760

Who knows what his commitment level is, but if he is dedicated, money
will not be an issue.

What is your reaction to this plane?


It's the next doctor killer. No matter how much training, you can't
be a professional pilot flying a hundred hours or so with your mind
on other avocations.

"Don Hammer" wrote in message
news:1120503614.9d7845ef9042c76b51f36dc25d66bf98@t eranews...


What is your reaction to this plane?


It's the next doctor killer. No matter how much training, you can't
be a professional pilot flying a hundred hours or so with your mind
on other avocations.

It's probably less complex (i.e., easier to fly) than a piston twin.

"Neil Gould" wrote

Evolved from... what? What other VLJs will be delivered within the next
year?

Evolutionary compared with turboprop performance and price.

Cirrus, I don't see a company's history as a very good predictor of their
future success. People will buy the aircraft that they think represents a

The odds of Cessna being around in 20 years are outstanding. Even if the
Mustang is not a rousing success, it will still be supported by Cessna.
Cessna still continues to support every plane it ever made.

The odds of Eclipse being around in 20 years are unknown.

better choice for their mission, and since the VLJ market will be at least
in part defined by return on investment, I think that planes costing

I gather that means you believe in the concept of hundreds or more Eclipse
air taxis? Now that is very much an unproven business model. It is even
more of an unproven business model when you start calculating the payload of
an Eclipse. Charter operations almost never make a profit if the capital
investment in an airplane are considered; there are so many people who want
to buy an airplane that the free market has reduced charter costs such that
a charter airplane returns a modest return on incremental hourly costs but
no return on capital costs. I have yet to see a realistic spreadsheet of
any Part 135 charter operation which results in a net profit including both
the cost of capital and operating costs; there is no reason to believe the
Eclipse will be any different.

--------------------
Richard Kaplan

www.flyimc.com

Nathan Young wrote:

On Mon, 04 Jul 2005 10:37:16 -0700, Richard Riley
wrote:


On Mon, 4 Jul 2005 13:07:54 -0400, "Kyle Boatright"
wrote:

Eclipse is going up against a player - Cessna - that dominates that
segment of the market. They're going in with 2 things - a much lower
price point, and a small technical advantage. Meanwhile Cessna has a
well established name, product line, production facilities, dealers,
repair facilities, diversified product line and deep pocket corporate
parents.

Does Eclipse have the money to stay alive in a price war with Cessna?


Bill Gates is the 2nd major investor in Eclipse... One can guess who
the #1 investor is...

http://www.eclipseaviation.com/inthe...content_id=760

Who knows what his commitment level is, but if he is dedicated, money
will not be an issue.



Bill is dedicated to making money. If Eclipse doesn't make money in a
reasonable time frame, I'll bet his "dedication" will quickly fade...


Matt

You can still buy a MUCH better used Learjet for the same money.

"Montblack" wrote in message
...
("Mike Rapoport" wrote)
It sounds great but the price has already risen almost 40% (in constant
dollars) for the initial $840K. I know of more than one person that put
down a deposit and won't be able to pay for the airplane unless they win
the lotto.


Can they sell their spot in line - thus getting back their deposit and
making a little on the side?

BTW, what were the price guarantees for the early deposit people? I would
think they'd get a price break vs. someone deciding, today, that they want
an Eclipse.


Montblack


I suppose that depends on how many people are in the same situation.

Mike
MU-2

It's probably less complex (i.e., easier to fly) than a piston twin.




I agree, but that twin doesn't go 400 kts either. Easier to fly
doesn't help the judgment issue when things are happening fast.

Thurman Munson had the full Flight Safety course before he flew his
Citation into the ground. Probably was thinking of his next baseball
contract instead of the best way to shoot an ILS. How many Malibu's
and Bonanza's have come out of the clouds minus their wings? Those
are singles easier to operate than any complex twin.

It is my observation and the NTSB's that it is the non-professional
pilots who lack the experience and singular focus of professional
pilots that find themselves victims of those accidents, through no
fault of the airframe.

Unfortunately I think you will see the same pattern with privately
operated VLJ's

The Cessna Mustang engines are 50% higher thrust than the versions used in
the Eclipse. I'm sure they are much more expensive.


"Richard Riley" wrote in message
...


They're now using the same engines (at the same cost to them) as
Cessna. ....

"Don Hammer" wrote

It is my observation and the NTSB's that it is the non-professional
pilots who lack the experience and singular focus of professional
pilots that find themselves victims of those accidents, through no
fault of the airframe.

If by "professional" you mean full-time pilot, then I believe this is your
opinion and not that of NTSB.

If by "professional" you mean a pilot who is well-trained, proficient,
well-equipped, and following sound risk management procedures, then yes, you
are correct.

--------------------
Richard Kaplan

www.flyimc.com