IFR student: circling approach struggles

On 7/22/2005 12:10, xyzzy wrote:

All through my primary training I learned never to turn more than 30
degree bank in the pattern, and keep that ball centered. For four
years and about 230 hours I've flown by that doctrine.

Now I'm doing instrument and on circling approaches I'm learning that to
keep it close enough in on downwind and still get it around to final
lined up, I have to bank pretty steeply and sometimes even do slipping
turns to final. Plus I'm starting from an altitude about 400-500 feet
lower than the pattern altitude I am used to. so suddenly I am being
called upon to do steep turns in the pattern, sometimes uncoordinated,
and significantly lower than I usually fly patterns. I'm find it hard
to unlearn and as a result my circling approaches are all overshooting
final. So far I have always been able to get back to it while staying
coordinated and land with plenty of runway left. I'm finding myself
having an easier time doing that than banking more than 30 degrees in a
slip while only 300-400 feet AGL.

Did other IFR pilots have this difficulty in training and if so how did
you overcome it. Right now my plan is to go up to altitude and practice
slipping turns and just work at it with my instructor.


I can't imagine it would be OK to allow an uncoordinated turn.

I have the same problems. It really feels unnatural. However, when I'm
far enough from the runway in the downwind leg, the turns work out ok,
although there isn't much time on the base leg. Basically I level the
wings, verify that I can see the runway, and then begin my descent and
turn to final.


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Student
Sacramento, CA

As others have written, slow down. What aircraft are you flying? What
is your circling airspeed?

I got my instrument rating a month ago and at no point did I have to
practice slipping turns. Doesn't sound like the right way to address
the problem.

xyzzy wrote:


Did other IFR pilots have this difficulty in training and if so how did
you overcome it. Right now my plan is to go up to altitude and practice
slipping turns and just work at it with my instructor.

Yossarian wrote:

As others have written, slow down. What aircraft are you flying? What
is your circling airspeed?

Flying a piper warrior, usually at 80 knots by then. As Mike R. said, I
may be keeping the downwind too tight.

xyzzy wrote:

All through my primary training I learned never to turn more than 30
degree bank in the pattern, and keep that ball centered. For four
years and about 230 hours I've flown by that doctrine.

Now I'm doing instrument and on circling approaches I'm learning that to
keep it close enough in on downwind and still get it around to final
lined up, I have to bank pretty steeply and sometimes even do slipping
turns to final. Plus I'm starting from an altitude about 400-500 feet
lower than the pattern altitude I am used to. so suddenly I am being
called upon to do steep turns in the pattern, sometimes uncoordinated,
and significantly lower than I usually fly patterns. I'm find it hard
to unlearn and as a result my circling approaches are all overshooting
final. So far I have always been able to get back to it while staying
coordinated and land with plenty of runway left. I'm finding myself
having an easier time doing that than banking more than 30 degrees in a
slip while only 300-400 feet AGL.

Did other IFR pilots have this difficulty in training and if so how did
you overcome it. Right now my plan is to go up to altitude and practice
slipping turns and just work at it with my instructor.


No, but then I never was told during my primary training that 30 degrees
was a bank limit. :-) One advantage of learning to fly from an
old-timer instructor.

Seriously, when flying at reasonable speeds (80K or so) for most light
airplanes, I've never found excessive banks to be needed to fly a
circling approach. How fast are you coming down final?


Matt

Something way wrong is happening in your training.

First, read what Mike Rapoport wrote - it's correct and I won't repeat
it.

Second, what exactly are you using to estimate distance from the runway
on downwind? You should be about 3000-4000 ft away from the runway on
downwind. Any tighter is unnecessary and undesirable.

Third, steep banks and uncoordinated maneuvers on a circling approach
are bad news. You can do whatever you want day-VFR (in gliders we
consider 45 degrees of bank in the pattern normal) but when flying at
night, with flight visibility 1 mile in mist, it's just too easy to
lose visual references and lose control. Unfortunately, you really
won't get a flavor of what a REAL circling approach (one where the vis
is close to mins) is like if all you ever do is fly under the hood on
nice days, then lift the hood and circle in good VFR. The hard part of
the circling approach to mins starts AFTER you go visual.

Fourth, your circle should be planned. By that I mean that before you
ever reach the IAF (or intercept the FAC inbound) you should already
have your ground track figured out, and you should know where the
descent begins. It begins at whatever point is necessary to maintain a
3-4 degree descent to the runway. That's about 400-500 fpm at 80 kts.
Planning anything steeper doesn't give you much in the way of options
if you find yourself high.

Michael

Go out and without the foggles or an instructor, do a whole bunch of
tight steep approaches and weird circle to lands. Get comfortable with
landing from lower than normal altitude. Make patterns as tight as
possible, etc. Just get comfortable with the limits of what the
airplane will do. You can SLIP all you want, just don't SKID (and you
know the difference right?). After that, you will be more comforatble
weith tight circle to lands.

Michael wrote:

Something way wrong is happening in your training.

First, read what Mike Rapoport wrote - it's correct and I won't repeat
it.

yes it was very helpful.


Second, what exactly are you using to estimate distance from the runway
on downwind? You should be about 3000-4000 ft away from the runway on
downwind. Any tighter is unnecessary and undesirable.

I think this may be the root of the problem, too close on downwind.

Third, steep banks and uncoordinated maneuvers on a circling approach
are bad news.

I agree with this which is why I am reluctant to bank steep or slip in
the turn.

Are you aware of the airspace provided for circling approaches? For CAT A
it is 1.3 nautical miles from the approach end of the runway. At an airport
with mulitple runways it can be a bit more than that, at least on downwind.
But, assume it is no greater than 1.3 nautical miles. That is a fair chunk
of airspace for a Cessna 182, or such.

xyzzy wrote:

All through my primary training I learned never to turn more than 30
degree bank in the pattern, and keep that ball centered. For four
years and about 230 hours I've flown by that doctrine.

Now I'm doing instrument and on circling approaches I'm learning that to
keep it close enough in on downwind and still get it around to final
lined up, I have to bank pretty steeply and sometimes even do slipping
turns to final. Plus I'm starting from an altitude about 400-500 feet
lower than the pattern altitude I am used to. so suddenly I am being
called upon to do steep turns in the pattern, sometimes uncoordinated,
and significantly lower than I usually fly patterns. I'm find it hard
to unlearn and as a result my circling approaches are all overshooting
final. So far I have always been able to get back to it while staying
coordinated and land with plenty of runway left. I'm finding myself
having an easier time doing that than banking more than 30 degrees in a
slip while only 300-400 feet AGL.

Did other IFR pilots have this difficulty in training and if so how did
you overcome it. Right now my plan is to go up to altitude and practice
slipping turns and just work at it with my instructor.

xyzzy wrote:


Did other IFR pilots have this difficulty in training and if so how did
you overcome it. Right now my plan is to go up to altitude and practice
slipping turns and just work at it with my instructor.

This is where I learned to not do circling approach at minimums or at night.

--
--------------------
Scott F. Migaldi
CP-ASEL-IA
N8116B

PADI MI-150972
Join the PADI Instructor Yahoo Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PADI-Instructors/

--------------------

I think this topic brings up another good point. Start practicing VFR
landings using non-standard approaches. I find a nice, out of the way
airport, with no traffic and practice right traffic, straight in, close
downwind, 180 turns to final,etc.... I also had a problem with
getting in the Downwind, base, final rut and needed to get some
practice doing funny approaches. Many VOR IAP do not line you up for
the runway.
This practice has actually helped me to land the airplane on nice days
as well as during IMC.