Engine over TBO at purchase

Others have offered good advice and I'll throw in my 2 cents worth.

How many planes have you looked at? I was in a similar situation to
yours when I was looking to buy an Ercoupe. I found a plane within
100 hours of TBO and the owner made only a modest accomodation for the
high-time engine, starting from an optimistic estimate of the market
value of the plane with a fresh engine. Bottom line, he wanted too
much and wouldn't budge. Since it was one of the first planes I
looked at, I walked away. Eventually I found a better plane with a
much better engine at a lower price! There are indeed many airplanes
out there.

One trick I used to find my airplane was, first I decided on the model
I wanted, then downloaded the FAA database and filtered it for owners
of those models with zip codes within about 200 mile range of me.
Then I wrote all the owners letters asking if they were interested in
selling, emphasizing I was not a broker. This generated a number of
quality replies, much better than looking in T.A.P.

Good luck!

On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 22:35:58 -0700, "DHead" wrote:

Hi group.
I am interested in buying a Sundowner with 2035 TT E&A.
The owner (actually the broker) offered to allow $5K off the asking price to
have the engine O/H'd.
I am a student pilot and very much want this particular airplane, but I
don't think that $5K off a $14K O/H is reasonable.
The avionics are ok, but could be improved on. My biggest concern at this
point is the engine time.


Any opinions on what is fair to me and the seller concerning allowances for
the engine O/H?

It depends on how the airplane is priced. If, in initially pricing the
aircraft, the broker already took into account the fact that the engine was
2,000 SMOH, then an additional $5,000 discount is gravy to you.

You need to appraise the value of the entire aircraft. Only then can you
tell if the additional $5K discount is a good deal for you.

AOPA has a service (for members) that allows this sort of appraisal. There
is also the Blue Book as well as independent services.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

I would consider it an opportunity. If you like the plane,
and a thorough pre-buy inspection finds nothing wrong then
use the TBO as a negotiating point. Personally, I would
rather choose the person who rebuilds my engine rather trust
someone who just wants to sell it.

In any case, as long as the compressions are still okay
you can still fly it beyond TBO. I would just make sure
that my offer included an appropriate discount for a quality
engine rebuild.

I'd buy the airplane cheap and then do the overhaul myself.. then you know
what you have... not a cheap overhaul by the seller.

Get an engine shop to tell you the overhaul cost, then add 50% for
"unknowns".
You don't know until it's opened up that the crank and case are good.

O-540 Overhaul just completed, quoted $19000 with a good crank and case.
Price dropped to $17500 because the cylinders were good. Price included mag
overhaul, carb overhaul etc.

Then we ended up spending $500 on a new starter and $500 on new hoses and
clamps etc

Price does not include the labor cost to remove and install the engine.

BT

"Bob Noel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"DHead" wrote:

Hi group.
I am interested in buying a Sundowner with 2035 TT E&A.
The owner (actually the broker) offered to allow $5K off the asking price
to
have the engine O/H'd.
I am a student pilot and very much want this particular airplane, but I
don't think that $5K off a $14K O/H is reasonable.
The avionics are ok, but could be improved on. My biggest concern at this
point is the engine time.
Any opinions on what is fair to me and the seller concerning allowances
for
the engine O/H?

what is the asking price? what would be the asking price of the aircraft
with
a good overhaul?

In general, it is always cheaper for the buyer to have the previous owner
pay for things because a seller never seems to be able to recover 100%
cost of repairs/improvements. However, be cautious of a cheapo
overhaul.

I'd recommend caution about buying an aircraft with a runout engine.
Overhauling an engine can be a great learning experience, and can
also be a lot of work, with lots of traps for the unwary.

good luck

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

I agree with everything except that a Sundowner is difficult to land. I
think it is no more difficult to land than any other light single, but it
does require a little more attention to speed. Keep your speed at 70 kts on
final, and it's a piece of cake.

Les

"A Lieberman" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 22:35:58 -0700, DHead wrote:

I am interested in buying a Sundowner with 2035 TT E&A.

Hi Gary,

I bought my 1976 Sundowner with 1940 TT on air and engine 4 years ago.
What I learned.....

Don't depend solely on compressions for evaluating a engine. I bought
mine
that had 76 to 78 on each cylinder. Thought that was great until an
exhaust valve disintegrated in flight. So, keep in mind, there is a
bottom
half of the engine to consider.

What you describe is a very underused plane. I learned this is just as
bad, if not worse then buying an overused plane. You may ask why? Things
corrode, grease settles and all sorts of nasty things happen to metal AND
WIRES when it sits unattended for long periods of times.

I bought mine for 38K. The owner originally asked for 44K, but I said no,
too high based on high time engine. He came back about 1 month later and
dropped it to 38K which I thought was fair enough. Bought the plane.

Flew it for 50 hours and then the exhaust valve on the number 4 cylinder
bit the dust. Got the cylinder replaced, and then another cylinder
started
acting up (luckily on the ground). I could not get it to pass the mag
check, taxied back to the ramp, asked my A&P to yank the engine and
overhaul it. 13.5K and a month later, I was a proud owner of a newly
overhauled plane.

Avionics. Mine was IFR capable, but was not current on the .411 and .413
transponder pitot static system check. You indicated you are a student,
so
this may not be important now, but it is nice to have it current. I had
just got my VFR ticket and was going to transition to my IFR rating, so I
figured, I would be saving a lot of money flying in my plane. (I probably
saved about 5K in training expenses, so that paid for the remainder of the
overhaul is the way I look at it. My radios are old and tired. I learned
from my last pitot static check, the filters are going bad, and will need
to be replaced. Because of the age of the radio, I was told, it probably
will be time to look at new avionics.

Sitting on the ramp is the worst thing one can do for the gauges.
Lubrication settles, gauges get sticky and so on. So, evaluate how much
was the plane used recently?

I am now at a point, where I have every switch, button and knob working.
(knock on wood!). It took me 3 years to get to this point, and it is
expensive. A stupid power supply to strobe light cost $240 dollars.

Not sure what you currently fly, but a Sundowner for creature comfort is
by
far better then a piper or a Cessna 172 or lower. Tons of room. Plan for
110 knots in your flight planning at 2300 rpm. I burn about 9.5 to 10
gph.

In the three years I have owned my plane, I have flown at least once a
week, so whoever gets my plane will have gotten a plane with some serious
TLC.

Note, a Sundowner is very difficult to learn to land. It is very nose
heavy and you must fly it all the way down to the ground. You must stick
to the POH numbers or you will float kingdomkong or drop like a brick. If
you hold the speed to the numbers you will grease every landing. The
elbow
gear does amazing things for landings.

The plane is built like a tank and flies like one, so don't expect to be a
speed demon after wheels are up. The known porposing problems are true,
as
I have been there and done it. If you bounce on landing, don't salvage
it,
go around.

Hope this helps!

Allen

I'll take an engine with 2500 since FREMAN before a 200 hrs since a "Dip &
Ship" overhaul anytime.
"John Doe" wrote in message
ink.net...
I would walk away.

There are thousands of planes for sale with plenty good lower time
engines.


"DHead" wrote in message
...
Hi group.
I am interested in buying a Sundowner with 2035 TT E&A.
The owner (actually the broker) offered to allow $5K off the asking
price
to have the engine O/H'd.
I am a student pilot and very much want this particular airplane, but I
don't think that $5K off a $14K O/H is reasonable.
The avionics are ok, but could be improved on. My biggest concern at
this
point is the engine time.
Any opinions on what is fair to me and the seller concerning allowances
for the engine O/H?
Thanks in advance.

Gary
Future pilot without a plane

I am interested in buying a Sundowner with 2035 TT E&A.
The owner (actually the broker) offered to allow $5K off the asking price to
have the engine O/H'd.
I am a student pilot and very much want this particular airplane, but I
don't think that $5K off a $14K O/H is reasonable.

$5k allowance not enough? You are darned right it is not. Many owners
think they can pass off a huge major repair on the next guy by quoting
some ridiculous price and waiting for the right sucker. The sad thing
is, they usually can. There are a lot more fools out there with money
who don't know or don't care about the math.

If the engine overhaul number is $14k, I would add another $5k for:
muffler O/H. alternator O/H, starter O/H, fuel and oil hoses, scat
tubing, etc. Also, have a mechanic look at the landing gear. I thought
that others had posted something that the sundowners have some rather
expensive cushions that give out with age.

Rather than trying to talk some sense into this owner, I would pass and
find a plane ready to go (with about 400 since overhaul).

Here is the Catch-22: The more you are prepared to walk away and wait,
the better your chances at getting a good plane. Junk is for sale every
day and readily available. Decent small airplanes are much harder to
find and usually take some time to locate. When they come around, it is
a feeding frenzy to get at it. Success means being willing to pass on
the dogs and possibly lose out on a couple of nice ones until your time
comes.

Good Luck,
Mike

I am interested in buying a Sundowner with 2035 TT E&A.
The owner (actually the broker) offered to allow $5K off the asking price
to
have the engine O/H'd.
I am a student pilot and very much want this particular airplane, but I
don't think that $5K off a $14K O/H is reasonable.


You are correct; $14K off a $14K O/H is the reasonable adjustment.

You seem pretty knowledgeable, but this article can help. including
explaining what TBO really represents.

http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/187037-1.html

/excerpt
The Savvy Aviator #4: Debunking TBO
April 14, 2004
By Mike Busch,
Columnist


Engine TBO (time between overhauls) seems to be one of the most
misunderstood concepts in aviation maintenance. There are lots of
TBO-related old wives tales that are widely believed by owners and mechanic
alike, and they can cost owners a great deal of money. Mike Busch endeavors
to clear up these misconceptions, and explain what TBO really means.
Ask any aircraft owner what the TBO is for the engine(s) on his aircraft and
you'll almost always get the correct answer without hesitation: "My engine
has a 1,700-hour TBO." But ask that owner to explain the significance of
that TBO figure and you'll get all sorts of answers, most of them flat
wrong. Here are a few of the most common misapprehensions about TBO:


"It's illegal to fly an airplane if the engine is past the TBO established
by the manufacturer."
Nonsense. The TBO figures published by Lycoming and TCM are not
airworthiness limitations. An engine may be long past TBO and still be
legally airworthy. (An engine may also become unairworthy long before
reaching TBO.)

/end excerpt

I bought my plane with less than 40 hours until TBO because I wanted to do a
complete makeover (TSIO-520 over to a TNIO-550) and got a very handsome deal
(the previous owner, I think, thought TBO was hard cast legal number as in
the OWT just mentioned) because of it.

If an airplane has a 2000 hr TBO and it costs $14K for the overhaul
(everything else not withstanding), the pro rata allowance then is $7 an
hour. If this fellow you're dealing with is allowing $5k he is attempting to
use the airplane and have you pay for it.

Good luck, and welcome to the Beech owners group...an elite group, IIDSSM
:~)

--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

Mike Spera wrote:

Ah Bull****.



If the engine overhaul number is $14k, I would add another $5k for:
muffler O/H.

$400 for a new one.


alternator O/H,

$300.


starter O/H,

$250.


fuel and oil hoses,

$50 maybe for hoses, plus time.


scat
tubing,

Hardly anything.

In article , Newps
wrote:

If the engine overhaul number is $14k, I would add another $5k for:
muffler O/H.
$400 for a new one.

alternator O/H,
$300.

starter O/H,
$250.

fuel and oil hoses,
$50 maybe for hoses, plus time.

depends on the airplane.

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule