C172 Flaps up or 10 degrees for takeoff

How long is the runway and what does the approach/departure zones look like?


It's long and at least one departure is clear. Doing it in a 172 still
requires a lot of consideration.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Blueskies wrote:

wrote in message ...

http://www.coloradopilots.org/

Yes, we fly a normally aspirated C172 ("N" model) into Leadville,
Colorado at 9,927 MSL. Pattern altitude is 11,000 MSL. FUN!

Best regards,

Jer/ "Flight instruction and mountain flying are my vocation!" Eberhard



How long is the runway and what does the approach/departure zones look like?

See: http://www.leadvilleairport.com/page...port_info.html

Runway 16/34, 6400 feet long, 75 feet wide.

After departure, "turn down-water", into the valley. Both ends of the
airport drop-offf into the (lower) valley by 200-400 feet. :-) There
are clear areas south and southwest, immediately north, then west.

ANY airplane uses up a lot more runway than you would think. :-) It
is NO uncommon at 65 degrees F for a Bonanza, with 1/2 tanks and two
people to depart on runway 34 and be at 50' AGL, climbing at 50 feet
per minute. (Read that again... over a mile of runway, barely off the
ground and barely climbing). This may be due to several factors,
including cross wind, drainage winds, and "sink" from the mountain
wave overhead and descending over the airport.

Best regards,

Jer/ "Flight instruction and mountain flying are my vocation!" Eberhard

--
Jer/ (Slash) Eberhard, Mountain Flying Aviation, LTD, Ft Collins, CO
CELL 970 231-6325 EMAIL jer'at'frii.com WEB http://users.frii.com/jer/
C-206 N9513G, CFII Airplane&Glider, FAA-DEN Aviation Safety Counselor
CAP-CO Mission&Aircraft CheckPilot, BM218 HAM N0FZD, 231 Young Eagles!

All of these post are correct, 10% for short or soft filed departure, but on
a hard surface of 2500' or more 0% works better. Air speed will climb much
faster after lift off. I fly 172 all the time and generally follow this rule
with no problems.

Michelle P wrote:

An interesting dilemma.
The manual for the 172 N tells you that 0-10 degrees is acceptable for
takeoff. However it does not tell you what affect it has at low altitude
300 feet MSL Density altitude around 2500 MSL. It only states that it
will have a detrimental affect at high altitude on a hot day. It also
does not give an airspeed for Vy flaps 10 degrees.

In talking to another pilot who has an 172 L has states that his manual
says if 10 degrees flaps are used it will decrease ground roll and
decrease climb rate. Having an overall detrimental affect.

The only definitive number the 172N manual states for flaps 10 degrees
is Vx.

First hand experience seems to confirm what the 172 L manual says.

What do you all think?
Michelle

There is another reason to use 10° flaps - training.
Many students are not learning to fly a 172, but using a 172 to learn to fly
airplanes. If you are anticipating transitioning up ASAP (as in career
oriented students) it's good to get into the habit, because your next
airplane may require flaps on takeoff, and the one after that certainly will.

I've noticed that airline pilots who also instruct in small airplanes tend to
insist on flaps on takeoff, as a matter of good habit forming. Some also call
positive rate and gear up as anticipated training.

G faris

Greg,

it's good to get into the habit, because your next
airplane may require flaps on takeoff, and the one after that certainly will.


If a pilot cannot (or will not) adapt to the specifics of the aircraft he/she
is currently flying, he/she has no business in any aircraft. There are so many
things different between aircraft that the idea behind that kind of habit
forming is more a danger than a benefit. Just my two cents.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

"Greg Farris" wrote in message
...
There is another reason to use 10° flaps - training.
Many students are not learning to fly a 172, but using a 172 to learn to
fly
airplanes. If you are anticipating transitioning up ASAP (as in career
oriented students) it's good to get into the habit, because your next
airplane may require flaps on takeoff, and the one after that certainly
will.

I've noticed that airline pilots who also instruct in small airplanes tend
to
insist on flaps on takeoff, as a matter of good habit forming. Some also
call
positive rate and gear up as anticipated training.

G faris

Then again one could transition up to a real airplane which of course would
have no flaps. Nor would the one after that or the one after that.

Greg Farris wrote:
There is another reason to use 10° flaps - training.
Many students are not learning to fly a 172, but using a 172 to learn to fly
airplanes. If you are anticipating transitioning up ASAP (as in career
oriented students) it's good to get into the habit, because your next
airplane may require flaps on takeoff, and the one after that certainly will.

Cherokee Six calls for minimum 10-degrees flaps for all takeoffs.
If you try a no-flaps takeoff, your takeoff roll is significantly longer.

john smith wrote:
Greg Farris wrote:
There is another reason to use 10? flaps - training.
Many students are not learning to fly a 172, but using a 172 to learn to fly
airplanes. If you are anticipating transitioning up ASAP (as in career
oriented students) it's good to get into the habit, because your next
airplane may require flaps on takeoff, and the one after that certainly will.

Cherokee Six calls for minimum 10-degrees flaps for all takeoffs.
If you try a no-flaps takeoff, your takeoff roll is significantly longer.

All correctly stated by each... however, I suggest it is better to
"learn to fly the current aircraft proficiently in the current weather
and environment" before "attempting to learn to fly the next
aircraft".

Best regards,

Jer/ "Flight instruction and mountain flying are my vocation!" Eberhard

--
Jer/ (Slash) Eberhard, Mountain Flying Aviation, LTD, Ft Collins, CO
CELL 970 231-6325 EMAIL jer'at'frii.com WEB http://users.frii.com/jer/
C-206 N9513G, CFII Airplane&Glider, FAA-DEN Aviation Safety Counselor
CAP-CO Mission&Aircraft CheckPilot, BM218 HAM N0FZD, 231 Young Eagles!

War Story

In late 1949/early 1950 I had a P-80A on cross country headed east,
can't remember where. This early version of the P-80 had the small
engine in it and the under slung tip tanks.

It was middle of summer and I stopped at Biggs AFB (El Paso) to
refuel. Full internal and full tips.

Taxied out for a TO on R/W 21 (over 13K feet long). R/W 21 had a cross
R/W about 4K down it. I released brakes and accelerated very slowly in
the heat and altitude. When I hit the cross R/W there was a slight
bump that threw me in the air and I caught it. Wasn't accelerating
very fast so pulled the gear (flaps were still down 30 degrees) to
reduce drag.

Guess what, no climb (and no gear to land on remaining R/W). R/W
heading was over Fort Bliss and I went over it about 5 feet above the
TV antennas on the barracks (could count the elements on them) and
just missed the flag pole.

Next obstacle was the hill west of El Paso toward which I was pointed
with a snow balls chance in hell of clearing.

Used some rudder and gently skidded the nose toward the south enough
to miss the hill.

Was then over Mexico and dodging cactus and blowing sage brush.
Started milking flaps up. Would get 25 or so feet altitude and retract
flaps 2-3 degrees and when I sank would rotate the nose up to keep
from hitting ground and again fly in ground effect.

After about 20 miles into Mexico I got the flaps up and was able to
gain a little airspeed which let me climb and accelerate.

1. I was a dam good pilot in those days.
2. I was also lucky as hell which we always said was the most
important aspect of flying.

On occasion, I still wake up and see in gory color that flight in high
density altitude and temp ( Sure made a believer out of me.

Big John
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` ``````````````````````````````


On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 16:40:49 -0000, wrote:

john smith wrote:
Greg Farris wrote:
There is another reason to use 10? flaps - training.
Many students are not learning to fly a 172, but using a 172 to learn to fly
airplanes. If you are anticipating transitioning up ASAP (as in career
oriented students) it's good to get into the habit, because your next
airplane may require flaps on takeoff, and the one after that certainly will.

Cherokee Six calls for minimum 10-degrees flaps for all takeoffs.
If you try a no-flaps takeoff, your takeoff roll is significantly longer.

All correctly stated by each... however, I suggest it is better to
"learn to fly the current aircraft proficiently in the current weather
and environment" before "attempting to learn to fly the next
aircraft".

Best regards,

Jer/ "Flight instruction and mountain flying are my vocation!" Eberhard

So what's the best procedure for a sand strip, 4000AGL, 50ft obstacle ?
I can see the advantage of 10 deg. flaps for a mud strip, but I am not
sure whether the increased friction due to sand is worth the decrease
in climb rate..

- Marco