Garmin 530 Fatal Error

Dave Butler wrote:
Andrew Gideon wrote:

Dave Butler wrote:


The GNS480 (and maybe all TSO 146 navigators, I don't know) have the
concept of a leg that terminates at an altitude, which will be the first
leg of such a missed approach procedure.



How is that displayed on the map? Does the map automatically shift
the next
leg to "direct to the next waypoint" from the location at which the
altitude is reached? What waypoint is displayed in the climbing leg?


http://www.garmin.com/manuals/GNS480_PilotsGuide.pdf (7+ meg download)

see p. 66(74 of 158) Leg Types
p. 68(76 of 158) Heading to an Altitude
p. 80(88 of 158) Flying the Missed Approach

The page number is the Garmin page numbering, and the (nn of 158) is the
pdf page number.


This sounds like an incredibly useful feature.

There's a departure procedure at KTEB that's even more complex than
this. From runways 1 and 6, this feature would cover it. But from 19,
the
procedure is runway heading until 800, then right to 280. Maintain 1500
until crossing the TEB R-250 & passing TEB 2.5 DME, then climb to 2000.

Note the "TEB R-250 & passing TEB 2.5 DME" "waypoint". Can the 480
handle
this?


Sorry, I don't have time to check on this right now, but maybe you can
answer this question with the information from the references above.
I'll try to look at this later.

I've just had a week off and had a little time to look at this. It appears that
the answer is that this departure procedure is not in the 480's database, same
as for all DPs that are strictly "pilot nav". There is no GPS guidance for this
departure procedure. This DP is all about headings to fly, no navigational guidance.

Dave

Wyatt Emmerich wrote:

My flight instructor is quite upset. He says every single one recurrent
pilots is making the same potentially fatal mistake. When they reach MDA or
the MAP, they hit the OBS/SUSP button as soon as it lights up. The Garmin
530 immediately paints a magenta line to the hold waypoint. Unfortunately,
often the full approach plate lists specific altitudes to which to climb
before making this turn. The instructor says eight out of eight of his
recurrent pilots are just hitting the SUSP button as soon as it appears and
heading to the hold, which could take them smack dab into terrain or towers.
We look up in the Garmin manual and it says nothing about making sure to
reach the proper altitude before hitting the OBS/Susp button. His point is
this: Garmin should have some type of display message that warns the pilot
to reach the proper altitude before turning to the hold fix.

Alas, the age of button pushers. It is called "suspend" for a reason. If it
were auto-sequence to the missed approach fix then that is what would happen.
But, it's "suspend" which means don't push the button accept in accordance with
the paper chart. I recall the Garmin manual saying something to that effect,
although I may be wrong.

As to the 530 having the altitude for the turn, that is much more sophisticated
than the specs in TSO-C129 except or allow. You find that stuff in high end
LNAV/FMS systems.

As to the lack of an airway database, Garmin screwed that one up in the design
and now they don't have sufficient memory to make it work. They know they're
wrong, but they simply won't admit it. If you were them, would you?

"Wyatt Emmerich" wrote in message
...
My flight instructor is quite upset. He says every single one recurrent
pilots is making the same potentially fatal mistake. When they reach MDA
or the MAP, they hit the OBS/SUSP button as soon as it lights up. The
Garmin 530 immediately paints a magenta line to the hold waypoint.
Unfortunately, often the full approach plate lists specific altitudes to
which to climb before making this turn. The instructor says eight out of
eight of his recurrent pilots are just hitting the SUSP button as soon as
it appears and heading to the hold, which could take them smack dab into
terrain or towers. We look up in the Garmin manual and it says nothing
about making sure to reach the proper altitude before hitting the OBS/Susp
button. His point is this: Garmin should have some type of display message
that warns the pilot to reach the proper altitude before turning to the
hold fix.


The SUSP illuminates to show the pilot that waypoint sequencing is
suspended. No more.

The functions are the same on all the GPS units and it is part of the TSO.
Anyway, it is not Garmin's fault that pilots don't read the manual and don't
follow approach plates...its the pilots fault.

Has anyone ever crashed because of this?

Mike
MU-2

When I fly an approach I usually put my King KLN90B in OBS (aka hold)
mode. This suspends waypoint sequencing. I make the FAF the current
waypoint and dial in the inbound heading. When I go missed, I just
ignore the GPS and follow the written instructions in the chart.
Usually a climb and to the holding fix. I make sure the holding fix is
in my flight plan, that way it is on the GPS map. I look at the little
airplane icon and head to the holding fix. Once leveled out, I can
start fiddleing with the GPS to get me onto the next step, whatever
that is. I like having the approach on the GPS map when I go missed,
that way I know where I am, I have a mental picture of where the missed
it in relation to the inbound course. All of this varies from approach
to approach, as there are many possiblities. Many GPS approaches and
even others have the missed approach fix the FAF, which is a nice
arrangement, you don't have an additional fix to worry about.

If I use my autopilot to fly the missed I don't couple it to the GPS, I
use heading (or in my case wing level) mode.

Above all, don't get hung up on the unit. Keep it simple. My way of
doing it also means I don't even have to hit a button (and possibly
screw things up) after I go missed. I just fly to the missed approach
fix using what is on the map. It's been working well.

YMMV.

Mike Rapoport wrote On 10/12/05 07:34,:
"Wyatt Emmerich" wrote in message
...

My flight instructor is quite upset. He says every single one recurrent
pilots is making the same potentially fatal mistake. When they reach MDA
or the MAP, they hit the OBS/SUSP button as soon as it lights up. The
Garmin 530 immediately paints a magenta line to the hold waypoint.
Unfortunately, often the full approach plate lists specific altitudes to
which to climb before making this turn. The instructor says eight out of
eight of his recurrent pilots are just hitting the SUSP button as soon as
it appears and heading to the hold, which could take them smack dab into
terrain or towers. We look up in the Garmin manual and it says nothing
about making sure to reach the proper altitude before hitting the OBS/Susp
button. His point is this: Garmin should have some type of display message
that warns the pilot to reach the proper altitude before turning to the
hold fix.



The SUSP illuminates to show the pilot that waypoint sequencing is
suspended. No more.

The functions are the same on all the GPS units and it is part of the TSO.
Anyway, it is not Garmin's fault that pilots don't read the manual and don't
follow approach plates...its the pilots fault.

Has anyone ever crashed because of this?

Mike
MU-2



I crashed my head into the panel trying to push the button. Does that count ?

From the GNS430 Manual:
[pg71] Note: When viewing the map page, note that the final course segment
is displayed in magenta...and a dashed line extends the course beyond the
MAP. The dashed line is provided for situational awareness only and should
NOT be used for navigation. Follow the published missed approach procedures.

Also:
[pg72] 2. Follow the missed approach procedures, as published on your
approach plate, for proper climb and heading instructions...

Seems that they have themselves covered although I am assuming the GNS530
manual has the same language as the GNS430's. I don't think the GNSx30 boxes
are allowed to use their altitude for anything official until they get the
WAAS upgrade anyway. If they put a simple note as a warning, then they would
have to put similar warnings for other operations (e.g. warning the pilot to
descend to the proper altitude when it goes into OBS/SUSP mode during an
approach with a holding pattern).

As other peopl have said, it's up to the pilot. The boxes are in compliance
with all TSO-c129 requirements. The issue should be directed at the FAA.

Marco Leon


"Wyatt Emmerich" wrote in message
...
My flight instructor is quite upset. He says every single one recurrent
pilots is making the same potentially fatal mistake. When they reach MDA
or
the MAP, they hit the OBS/SUSP button as soon as it lights up. The Garmin
530 immediately paints a magenta line to the hold waypoint. Unfortunately,
often the full approach plate lists specific altitudes to which to climb
before making this turn. The instructor says eight out of eight of his
recurrent pilots are just hitting the SUSP button as soon as it appears
and
heading to the hold, which could take them smack dab into terrain or
towers.
We look up in the Garmin manual and it says nothing about making sure to
reach the proper altitude before hitting the OBS/Susp button. His point is
this: Garmin should have some type of display message that warns the pilot
to reach the proper altitude before turning to the hold fix.





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Wyatt,

Garmin should have some type of display message that warns the pilot
to reach the proper altitude before turning to the hold fix.


Well, I'm not sure I follow. The Garmin doesn't display the full missed
approach procedure. Not sure how explicit the manual is about it, but
it is pretty clear from even cursory reading (and looking at the
display). That's why it goes into "SUSPEND" - because the nnav
information isn't there. The data is simply not in the database. Legs
that end at an altitude, not a point, aer not part of the data format
used by the 430. Not even the G1000 has it, AFAIK. Only the 480.

Im my view, it is the pilot's responsibility to know about the
limitations of the gear he is using. All the stuff in the plane has
limitations. And we should inform ourselves about them. Nothing to it.
And nothing wrong with Garmin about it at all.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Wyatt Emmerich wrote On 10/11/05 19:39,:
My flight instructor is quite upset. He says every single one recurrent
pilots is making the same potentially fatal mistake. When they reach MDA or
the MAP, they hit the OBS/SUSP button as soon as it lights up. The Garmin
530 immediately paints a magenta line to the hold waypoint. Unfortunately,
often the full approach plate lists specific altitudes to which to climb
before making this turn. The instructor says eight out of eight of his
recurrent pilots are just hitting the SUSP button as soon as it appears and
heading to the hold, which could take them smack dab into terrain or towers.
We look up in the Garmin manual and it says nothing about making sure to
reach the proper altitude before hitting the OBS/Susp button. His point is
this: Garmin should have some type of display message that warns the pilot
to reach the proper altitude before turning to the hold fix.



Why not just a warning label on the front that says "not for use by idiots".

Best suggestion I've seen so far.

On 10/12/2005 3:15 PM, Scott Moore wrote the following:
Wyatt Emmerich wrote On 10/11/05 19:39,:

My flight instructor is quite upset. He says every single one recurrent
pilots is making the same potentially fatal mistake. When they reach MDA or
the MAP, they hit the OBS/SUSP button as soon as it lights up. The Garmin
530 immediately paints a magenta line to the hold waypoint. Unfortunately,
often the full approach plate lists specific altitudes to which to climb
before making this turn. The instructor says eight out of eight of his
recurrent pilots are just hitting the SUSP button as soon as it appears and
heading to the hold, which could take them smack dab into terrain or towers.
We look up in the Garmin manual and it says nothing about making sure to
reach the proper altitude before hitting the OBS/Susp button. His point is
this: Garmin should have some type of display message that warns the pilot
to reach the proper altitude before turning to the hold fix.




Why not just a warning label on the front that says "not for use by idiots".

On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 02:39:58 GMT, "Wyatt Emmerich"
wrote:

My flight instructor is quite upset. He says every single one recurrent
pilots is making the same potentially fatal mistake. When they reach MDA or
the MAP, they hit the OBS/SUSP button as soon as it lights up. The Garmin
530 immediately paints a magenta line to the hold waypoint. Unfortunately,
often the full approach plate lists specific altitudes to which to climb
before making this turn. The instructor says eight out of eight of his
recurrent pilots are just hitting the SUSP button as soon as it appears and
heading to the hold, which could take them smack dab into terrain or towers.
We look up in the Garmin manual and it says nothing about making sure to
reach the proper altitude before hitting the OBS/Susp button. His point is
this: Garmin should have some type of display message that warns the pilot
to reach the proper altitude before turning to the hold fix.

I'm not sure why he's upset, that's what the manual says to do. See
page 67. Reach MAP, press OBS, follow plate's heading/alt
instructions, go to holding point.

You do have a responsibility to know the gear you're flying behind,
and having a GPS doesn't remove the responsibility to have plates, or
fly the plate as charted.

Admittedly, I don't hit OBS until I'm ready to go direct to the
holding point after climbing and turning as charted, but hitting OBS
right at the MAP doesn't appear "wrong" if you're reading the
procedure from the manual.