Sport Pilot Training in VA

"TaxSrv" wrote in message
...
"Gig 601XL Builder" wrote:
He's over pricing even based on sportsplanes.com's own business
model.

Operating Cost at 700 hours per year is estimated to be $45.03

Cost of debt service...$10.63/hr

Folks not in the accounting business should opine only, with
disclaimer.



Hey, the FBO in question (and he really isn't an FBO, just a guy with a
plane to rent and an instructor to teach) is the one that decided to sign-up
with a group (sportsplanes.com) that published the expected rental rates for
what he is going to rent. One would assume a large percentage of the
customers that come to him are going to come from the website where the
information I quoted is openly available.

Anybody, and I would hope that would include those in the accounting
business, wouldn't expect to make a living off of renting one SLSA. If he
breaks even on his own flying of said airplane he should be a very happy
camper.

wrote in
oups.com:

I bet I am one of thousands of low time pilots (PPL for 2 years and
170 hours) that looks at sport pilot planes as chance to fly new,
interesting, and most of all cheap aircraft.

I really like the 601 and would love to put 10 to 20 hours on one but
the price should be more like $60/hr for the plane. If the new sport
pilot planes cost more than a PA28-140 or C-172, I think sport pilot
will just become flying for thoose who can't get a medical. Then
FBO's will never get enough hours on there planes to be profitable.

Sport Pilot planes need to be no frills, cheap, and fun to succeed.


Give me a Piper Cub and a tent!




Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
The plane costs around $80K he's nuts and when I meet him and I'm
sure I will I'll tell him so.

He's flying the plane all over the place to fly-ins and the like. He
probably is trying to pay for all of his flying and it isn't going to
work.

Mark my words the price will drop or the repo man will come.


"W P Dixon" wrote in message
...
Yep!
I told him as much..way over priced! 130 an hour in block time no
less
!!!! Ridiculas! I'd love to fly one myself but I won't at that
price. Of course I heard the usual well compare it to the cost and
maintenance of a new Diamond . And compare it to a 40 year old
plane. Well if the maintenance on a new sport plane is more than
the maintenance and upkeep of a 40-60 year old "sport category"
plane..I don't want one!
And heck you can rent a Diamond for 130 an hour can't you? They
cost in
the range of 140-150 G? The 601 supposedly as S-LSA around 45G ????
I don't think enough rich doctor and lawyer types will be
interested in flying a 601 to keep them afloat. Especially ones
that need to get a sport pilot cert. May want to hold out for that
repo

Patrick
student SP
aircraft structural mech

"Gig 601XL Builder" wr.giacona@coxDOTnet wrote in message
news:G7e3f.26985$b65.20966@okepread01...



Jeez, that is high. I'll bet the price drops when no one takes
them up on that. There is no way in hell it costs $130/hour to fly
a 601XL unless there business model has them paying the thing off
in 1000 hours.

I was planning on going there or to one of the other
sportsplanes.com centers for some dual and time in model before I
do my first flight. Hopefully by then the price will have dropped.
Either that or find out who is financing the plane there will
probably be a repo in a few months.





he's doing it because he can.... Right now there are only 2 places in
the country that are openly offering concentrated SP instruction, this
one, and St. Charles Flying service in Mo. Funny thing is though, the
SportStar that St Charles is using is only $73-$79/hr and costs a cool
$100k in its configuration. They are losing so much money on that
plane, they've ordered another one HEH!.


So, they WILL get some east coasters to come out for a week and do some
SP training in VA, but if "I" was doing it, I'd be flying to MO..

There is also a flight school in/near Phoenix with an Allegro (also
rents in the $70's).... I don't know if they will do an accelerated
program though.

It's all about what the market will bere. Go to Orange County
California, they've got a Piper Cub you can rent for $100/hr... then an
extra $40/hr for the instuctor. You can actually go to the
sunriseaviation website and see that it's booked an average of 1.5
hrs/day....

--
-- ET :-)

"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams

Let's not count out the school up around Boston somewhere that is training
in Ercoupes..they have several.
Also a place in middle Georgia training in Flightstars/and a Champ available
for tailwheel endorsements. There are places out there, some on the net some
not. Just have to shop around. I hope to make it over by St Louis and fly
their Luscombe one of these days.

Patrick
student SP
aircraft structural mech

"ET" wrote in message
...
wrote in
oups.com:

I bet I am one of thousands of low time pilots (PPL for 2 years and
170 hours) that looks at sport pilot planes as chance to fly new,
interesting, and most of all cheap aircraft.

I really like the 601 and would love to put 10 to 20 hours on one but
the price should be more like $60/hr for the plane. If the new sport
pilot planes cost more than a PA28-140 or C-172, I think sport pilot
will just become flying for thoose who can't get a medical. Then
FBO's will never get enough hours on there planes to be profitable.

Sport Pilot planes need to be no frills, cheap, and fun to succeed.


Give me a Piper Cub and a tent!




Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
The plane costs around $80K he's nuts and when I meet him and I'm
sure I will I'll tell him so.

He's flying the plane all over the place to fly-ins and the like. He
probably is trying to pay for all of his flying and it isn't going to
work.

Mark my words the price will drop or the repo man will come.


"W P Dixon" wrote in message
...
Yep!
I told him as much..way over priced! 130 an hour in block time no
less
!!!! Ridiculas! I'd love to fly one myself but I won't at that
price. Of course I heard the usual well compare it to the cost and
maintenance of a new Diamond . And compare it to a 40 year old
plane. Well if the maintenance on a new sport plane is more than
the maintenance and upkeep of a 40-60 year old "sport category"
plane..I don't want one!
And heck you can rent a Diamond for 130 an hour can't you? They
cost in
the range of 140-150 G? The 601 supposedly as S-LSA around 45G ????
I don't think enough rich doctor and lawyer types will be
interested in flying a 601 to keep them afloat. Especially ones
that need to get a sport pilot cert. May want to hold out for that
repo

Patrick
student SP
aircraft structural mech

"Gig 601XL Builder" wr.giacona@coxDOTnet wrote in message
news:G7e3f.26985$b65.20966@okepread01...



Jeez, that is high. I'll bet the price drops when no one takes
them up on that. There is no way in hell it costs $130/hour to fly
a 601XL unless there business model has them paying the thing off
in 1000 hours.

I was planning on going there or to one of the other
sportsplanes.com centers for some dual and time in model before I
do my first flight. Hopefully by then the price will have dropped.
Either that or find out who is financing the plane there will
probably be a repo in a few months.





he's doing it because he can.... Right now there are only 2 places in
the country that are openly offering concentrated SP instruction, this
one, and St. Charles Flying service in Mo. Funny thing is though, the
SportStar that St Charles is using is only $73-$79/hr and costs a cool
$100k in its configuration. They are losing so much money on that
plane, they've ordered another one HEH!.


So, they WILL get some east coasters to come out for a week and do some
SP training in VA, but if "I" was doing it, I'd be flying to MO..

There is also a flight school in/near Phoenix with an Allegro (also
rents in the $70's).... I don't know if they will do an accelerated
program though.

It's all about what the market will bere. Go to Orange County
California, they've got a Piper Cub you can rent for $100/hr... then an
extra $40/hr for the instuctor. You can actually go to the
sunriseaviation website and see that it's booked an average of 1.5
hrs/day....

--
-- ET :-)

"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams

Wow, I sounds like you guys have put a lot more thought it to this than
I did.
Currently I am a memeber of a club. I totally understand that a club,
set to break even and with many volunter hours is much cheaper than a
business that actually has to pay people let a lone make a profit.

(my club was $1500 to buy in C172 aprox $65 hour with current fuel
prices)

I started thinking and I guess sport pilot planes aren't going to be
any cheaper than a C152. The difference in fuel burn just dosen't
make up for the fact that a new airplane means more debt / interest
and insurance costs. I have yet to be proven that a rotex or jabiru is
much cheaper to operate than a Lyc.

I am still will to rent one from time to time if anyone ever decides to
rent out one in the Seattle area. (feel free to email me if you know
where a rental is)

I still hope the sport pilots rule encourages for pilots. Of course
how can anyone get a license in only 20 hours but that's another story.

Mike,
Like the required minimum times for a Rec or a Private Pilot, it is just
that ....the minimum. I worry about folks who think the goal should be the
minimum. I focus on being a proficient pilot. How many hours that takes me,
well it will just be how many hours it takes me! I hope to be wrapping up
soon timewise. At around 20 duel, but still need cross country and solos.
Lack of ability to fly a sport plane locally can add to the time as
well. I started in Cherokee/Warrior , 8.5 in those, and then started on
taildraggers ..and it really was alot like starting over. Add in there that
I am also doing spin training, which most Private Pilots nowdays don't do I
am told..and yep it is going to run me over the minimum hours. I want to be
good, not a minimum
I will finish up on the controlled airspace endorsement and the 87 knot
endorsement too. I think doing all of that will make me a good rookie pilot!
When I get my certificate I will be like every new pilot, I will have a
certificate to really learn.
One thing is true..the sport pilot rule has alot of prices jacked up !
Old planes that you could hardly give away before are selling like hot cakes
for a good chunk of change. And prices on new ones are jacked up as well. As
for their rental..they are a sport plane, no matter how new and
shiney....none are speed demons. They can only cruise at 120 knots no matter
how slick it looks. It will not have the payload of most GA
airplanes....it's a sport plane. I can rent an Archer for 100 bucks, a 172
for less than that. They are not new...but the old "sport planes" can be
rented pretty dern cheap. 57 an hour last time due to a rise in gas cost.
Good deal if you ask me!
Let us this as a scenario for comparison. If you went to a car rental
place and they had a 2000 Mustang GT for 100 a day, or a Focus for 100 a
day......which would be rented? Right , you can bet your sweet bippy the
Focus is staying parked. Now put sport plane(plane by hour of course) in
there instead of Focus. Still is going to stay parked more than any other
one. Lower the rate of the Focus or sport plane to 60 and by golly it's a
miracle ,there is a demand. I think new sport planes are going to have to
accept the fact that they are a sport plane always will be! For a salesman
to compare a sport plane to normal new GA is IMHO ridiculas.
No matter if you put a glass panel in it or not..it still has the same
cruise , the same gross weight and all the other limitations. I'll be the
first to admit alot of folks (especially if they have money to burn) would
have to fly anything with the latest "Gizmo" in it. But that group is not
what is going to make or break sport pilot. Normal everyday folks wanting to
fly as cheap as possible will. You have to get them in there..130 bucks an
hour is not going to do that.
Make that rental so it even attracts regular PP's and wow look at how
much your plane is getting rented out. I don't know of many PP's that would
rent a sport plane for what they could rent a 25 year old faster plane for
especially if they wanted to actually go on alittle trip. Right now there is
a difference as to what is cost effective to FBO/owner and the consumer. We
all know if the consumer does not see it as cost effective they won't do it.
No consumer, another aviation biz bites the dust.

Patrick
student SP
aircraft structural mech


wrote in message
ps.com...
.. Of course
how can anyone get a license in only 20 hours but that's another story.

Mike,
From the EAA site these are in WA. I don't have a clue where they are in
comparison to you but what the heck!
College Place, WA Allan Fisher509-529-9370 has a RANS S-12 , Enumclaw,
Steve Fribley 206-234-1306 has a Taylorcraft BC-12, Spanaway, Ray Blatt,
253-847-4875, has a RANS -S9 and RANS S10, Seattle David Overman
253-241-9891, Sparrowhawk AutoGyro (now that'd be different!)

Patrick
student SP
aircraft structural mech

wrote in message
ps.com...
Wow, I sounds like you guys have put a lot more thought it to this than
I did.
Currently I am a memeber of a club. I totally understand that a club,
set to break even and with many volunter hours is much cheaper than a
business that actually has to pay people let a lone make a profit.

(my club was $1500 to buy in C172 aprox $65 hour with current fuel
prices)

I started thinking and I guess sport pilot planes aren't going to be
any cheaper than a C152. The difference in fuel burn just dosen't
make up for the fact that a new airplane means more debt / interest
and insurance costs. I have yet to be proven that a rotex or jabiru is
much cheaper to operate than a Lyc.

I am still will to rent one from time to time if anyone ever decides to
rent out one in the Seattle area. (feel free to email me if you know
where a rental is)

I still hope the sport pilots rule encourages for pilots. Of course
how can anyone get a license in only 20 hours but that's another story.

On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:56:13 -0400, "W P Dixon"
wrote:

Then you need to fly a Cub where I go at 57 an hour wet! But still 75
sure beats 100 to 130! Yep 57, it went up a few bucks because of fuel prices
, but still is a great deal.

It is indeed a great deal. But note that if you divide the cost of the
Cub into the LSA mentioned, and multiply that times $57, you will
still be north of $100/hr.

I appreciate that all costs don't go up in relation to the purchase
price, but you can't pay for an $80,000 airplane by charging $60 an
hour, which I think was the renter's desired figure.




-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:26:07 -0400, "W P Dixon"
wrote:

There are places out there,

There's a list of Cub-friendly airports (and Cub instruction) at
www.pipercubforum.com/friendly.htm

I'd be glad of any additions.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

You in fact may not!, and it is my opinion that a sport plane new or not
should not cost 80,000 . To make it the planes need to be kept simple and
cheap. If aviation refuses to have a reasonable price on a sport plane and
reasonable rental rates then they will simply be bankrupt. Not enough rich
doctors and lawyers to keep it afloat, and the regular guy won't be able to
afford a 80 G airplane.

Patrick
student SP
aircraft structural mech

"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:56:13 -0400, "W P Dixon"
wrote:

Then you need to fly a Cub where I go at 57 an hour wet! But still 75
sure beats 100 to 130! Yep 57, it went up a few bucks because of fuel
prices
, but still is a great deal.

It is indeed a great deal. But note that if you divide the cost of the
Cub into the LSA mentioned, and multiply that times $57, you will
still be north of $100/hr.

I appreciate that all costs don't go up in relation to the purchase
price, but you can't pay for an $80,000 airplane by charging $60 an
hour, which I think was the renter's desired figure.




-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

"Not enough rich doctors and lawyers to keep it afloat, and the regular guy
won't be able to afford a 80 G airplane."

Perhaps not, but you really should take a look at this:
http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/cont.../lsa_boom.html

Here's a representative quote, from Tim Elliott, the president of American
Legend Aircraft of Texas: "The rate of new aircraft and new customers
entering this market is incredible. We're currently sold out of production
through May of 2006...".

I'm not necessarily speaking directly to you, Patrick, but from some of the
comments I've seen on this thread, I'm afraid that some of the posters
really need to get out and take a look around at what is actually happening
in the LSA market...



"W P Dixon" wrote in message
...
You in fact may not!, and it is my opinion that a sport plane new or not
should not cost 80,000 . To make it the planes need to be kept simple
and
cheap. If aviation refuses to have a reasonable price on a sport plane and
reasonable rental rates then they will simply be bankrupt. Not enough rich
doctors and lawyers to keep it afloat, and the regular guy won't be able
to
afford a 80 G airplane.

Patrick
student SP
aircraft structural mech

"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:56:13 -0400, "W P Dixon"
wrote:

Then you need to fly a Cub where I go at 57 an hour wet! But still 75
sure beats 100 to 130! Yep 57, it went up a few bucks because of fuel
prices
, but still is a great deal.

It is indeed a great deal. But note that if you divide the cost of the
Cub into the LSA mentioned, and multiply that times $57, you will
still be north of $100/hr.

I appreciate that all costs don't go up in relation to the purchase
price, but you can't pay for an $80,000 airplane by charging $60 an
hour, which I think was the renter's desired figure.




-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com